Things to talk about

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Cattiwen
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Things to talk about

Post by Cattiwen » Sun Mar 20, 2011 11:31 pm

Right, this is probably going to raise a few heckles and be a controversial post but someone told me to take it to the forum and so I am.

Firstly I have to apologise about my rant the other day after leaving the kin, combination of a bad day, stress and a comment that pushed me over the edge.

Anyway now that I've admitted I was stupid, I want to address some other things I have seen.

Today I've seen more than one occasion where items were looted as a genuine mistake. However the attitudes I've seen as a response haven't been brilliant. The item I looted I did because it was genuinely better than the item I had and I did not see the chat from the person who actually wanted it. The fact that there's more than one of us hunters who has the item already doesn't seem to make a difference.

Perhaps I see this game differently to some people, it's a distraction from real life, something to unwind with when I get home from work. However it seems others see it as a be all and end all (sorry for some of my terminology to some of the non-English people, I could probably explain better if asked!).

I've always seen it as a case of if I don't get an item, then there will probably be a run in the future where it might drop again. If people are trying to prepare for a specific event then it might be better to form a group consisting only of those characters, or making it known up front (if trying to fill a spot) for someone not to roll. I've seen many people say "only roll for stuff that's relevant to your class", however (in the one particular item I rolled for) some items are multi-class even if they're slightly better for one than the other. Everyone is trying to improve their kit, that's why they do the runs.

I've made it known that I enjoy kin runs but don't like PUGs that much. I know that doesn't help me in the game but it's the way I usually play. If I've done a run I'm happy to give up my place if there's a queue. One thing that does annoy me is that if there's a queue of people wanting to do runs, we should try and rotate people in and out (admittedly some positions are hard or impossible to rotate out - Nost is one of the key personnel and Khyn also so I don't begrudge them as they're always helping out).

Anyway I hope this spawns a useful debate rather than flame wars or personal attacks, but we'll see (be good people!).
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Re: Things to talk about

Post by Wiploc » Mon Mar 21, 2011 12:09 am

First of Cat, let me just say that of course this debate should be a useful one. Any further tension would be ridiculous since - as you state yourself - this is a game. A game which I use myself to unwind and to have fun. When that is said, let's turn to the key issue.

The loot rules, for example, are not iron clad. The beauty of a game is the fact that we can moneouvre freely and individually. Still, as you point out there are certain benefits when being in a kin. To me being a member means having a solid base - a place to find help and to group up. Group dynamics and team work mean a great deal to me and I like the feeling when things start to click. Now, in terms of the loot rules - well, naturally you have a point in the fact that the next instance is right around the corner. But, unwritten rules very much exist and they help when initiating and building teamwork. In this case, and now anyone feel free to correct me, items come with certain stats/numbers etc. Of course there will be items that "talks" to several classes; but then again some items are more limited in terms of single (maybe dual) class boosters. For example: M/A/V is more of a Champ/Tank item - and not so much a hunters. Also, when a Champions 2. age reforge comes up it seems odd that a hunter rolls for it (not pointing my finger on you on that one). That is it really - and then back to your point. It is a game; tomorrow comes another chance. Then why not wait 'til the class specific item comes up - and leave the current one for those to who it correlates.

Enough said. As you, I hope for this to be a solid, constructive debate. We may all learn something new right :)

Regards
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Augrim
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Re: Things to talk about

Post by Augrim » Mon Mar 21, 2011 12:43 am

Why not say "Augrim" rather than beating around the bush?
Firstly I have to apologise about my rant the other day after leaving the kin, combination of a bad day, stress and a comment that pushed me over the edge.
At the time of the conversation this issue was discussed at length and despite a lot of valid points being made by a number of people you were clearly not in a mood to read every comment and probably missed a few of them.

That's an understandable situation if you were that irate.
I've made it known that I enjoy kin runs but don't like PUGs that much. I know that doesn't help me in the game but it's the way I usually play. If I've done a run I'm happy to give up my place if there's a queue. One thing that does annoy me is that if there's a queue of people wanting to do runs, we should try and rotate people in and out (admittedly some positions are hard or impossible to rotate out - Nost is one of the key personnel and Khyn also so I don't begrudge them as they're always helping out).
The problem arises in that as you say there are a number of key positions which we have very few individuals currently filling. There are any number of DPS classes, a fewer number of DPS/CC classes and a very small amount of tanks and healers - the number of viable fellowships is likewise commensurately small and the "competition" for places is as a result quite high.

Flexibility was a word I recall being mentioned several times so let me address that from my personal perspective before anyone else adds their view:

I can, and frequently do tank instances in an attempt to assist kin members - it's the one role I can fulfil with a modicum of aplomb and being 100% honest I spent 700s+ this evening in re-traiting so that Aed could collect a number of medallions in order to complete his Moria armour. I'm also testing the water vis a vis survivability in a number of formats for the DN raid on Saturday, and for more taxing instances that still contain particular drops, or simply have a large number of medallions to exchange for armour and scrolls.

Champions do at least have the option of being that flexible and accommodating but there simply aren't many healers and many other classes absolutely do not have that option. I don't think people are being deliberately obtuse in wanting to run with a viable "team" and equally they're not trying to infuriate kin members by refusing to make attempts at various class roles....the simple fact is that if you look at the demographic of active members in that level range it's disproportionately weighted towards DPS which is always going to hamper kin instance runs.
Today I've seen more than one occasion where items were looted as a genuine mistake. However the attitudes I've seen as a response haven't been brilliant. The item I looted I did because it was genuinely better than the item I had and I did not see the chat from the person who actually wanted it. The fact that there's more than one of us hunters who has the item already doesn't seem to make a difference.
If it's a genuine mistake then I've seen these things happens a hundred times over the years. However in the situation where I took the time to try and inform everyone that I was specifically trying to accumulate tanking gear I am going to be understandably annoyed regardless of intent or lack thereof and for a couple of very simple reasons:

I absolutely do not think this game is the "be all and end all" of existence and although I do attempt to take matters seriously when the situation demands, I'm sure there's a number of people who will vouch for the fact that LoTRO is very far from defining me.

Let's get that out of the way before I progress because the inference in your post is that I'm a humourless lotro player who takes it all far too seriously.

Now.

One of those situations in which I do invest my time and likewise attempt to focus seriously upon is raiding.

I'm a very experienced raider on various MMO's and although it might be difficult to understand for those newcomers to the game it can be a very stressful situation to be involved in..... and a kin attempting a new instance for the first time can present one of the great dichotomies of the game: Huge amounts of fun and stress at the same time. I would never attempt to mitigate the former but I'll do everything I can to prevent the latter - part and parcel of that is preparation and specifically in this case, off-tanking mobs safely whilst we learn the trash pulls/adds/bosses. On top of positioning, watching for inductions, keeping any eye on healer aggro and all the other roles a tank has to fulfil the last thing I want to worry about is hard-hitting mobs causing issues.

There are other "tank pockets" of or around that equivalent level......one is acquired from Kindred rep with the Grey Company, one drops in HoC (a rare drop and of course there's no guarantee anyone will win a roll BUT it's the best choice for a champion who may not be using a shield, or even one that does so) and the Vane is another alternative. Although inferior to the former it's preferable to not having a suitable item for that slot in the first place. I'm a firm believer in the adage that attention to a number of smaller details effects the outcome of events in a much more meaningful way than one might imagine so I don't only reserve this ideal for gear but consumables, tactics.....everything I can possibly do to positively influence the outcome and play my role in the raid.

In short I do care to the point of becoming irate at times and equally I have to say your confrontational attitude prompted me to respond quite bluntly, and was exacerbated by the situation in which you decided to leave the kin and make a number of non-specific comments that seemed expressly designed to provoke responses from the people online at the time - none of whom deserved to be buttonholed in that way.

If you were upset for various other reasons then as I said, your actions are partially understandable......if you genuinely didn't notice my comments regarding the trinket then there's nothing more to be done. It's an all-too-common situation in PuGs but for years I played with a DKP system in raids, and a very courteous system of checks and balances with guild members in which we only ever rolled for one item from a boss drop, and did our best to ensure we weren't ruffling any feathers by doing so.

Perhaps I am something of an old hand and perhaps that all-but-unconscious rolling ethic is so ingrained I never stop to consider it but I extend that courtesy to everyone I play with and expect it in return - a fact borne out by anyone who's seen me wish good luck to other rollers or to pass entirely on an item I felt was better suited to a different class.

There's never a long period once the chests are opened, but we have ample time for discussions and inspections before that.

To echo Wip's point - a kin should be a close-knit team where we can rely on and trust each other so although well meaning I would hate to see this debate or the furore that caused it grow further out of hand.....I don't wish to see the unwritten rules have to be written.
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Re: Things to talk about

Post by Wiploc » Mon Mar 21, 2011 1:09 am

And btw - just to set things straight! I learned the rules the hard way when I rolled for an off-class item (just ask Sel)! But I got the point - and I appreciate the logic and effect (as stated in regards to team work + spirit)

Cya in there
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Balthelion
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Re: Things to talk about

Post by Balthelion » Mon Mar 21, 2011 1:49 am

Two Words: Master. Loot.

Helps prevent people rolling for items that are totally not for their class, as well as accidental rolls. Plus in the event of any controversy, you have more than 30s to settle a dispute before loot is distributed.

But if you know you're going to roll on an item that's much more oriented to another class, it doesn't cost anything to give the group the courtesy of a heads up :)
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Re: Things to talk about

Post by Aedfrith » Mon Mar 21, 2011 9:24 am

(Posted while in the doctor's waiting room)

There's a lot of sense talked by everyone here, which reassures me a lot. I think much of this is about expectations and experiencem I freely admit I am a n00b and need help, and hope I am appropriately grateful when it is given. Especially when it costs 700s. Payment in pretties if desired :D

I totally agree with Bal that we should have master loot lists (run by an experienced player) if there's specific items people will want (another example: HoC bracelet). The only way we'll find this out, though, is discussions at the start of the instance. Managing expectations is my day job...

I also hope we can naximise the fun and minimise the stress *hugs all*.
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Re: Things to talk about

Post by Balthelion » Mon Mar 21, 2011 10:23 am

Aedfrith wrote:I totally agree with Bal that we should have master loot lists (run by an experienced player) if there's specific items people will want (another example: HoC bracelet). The only way we'll find this out, though, is discussions at the start of the instance. Managing expectations is my day job...
Master loot isn't a list (something like DKP or Suicide Kings). It's an in game loot rule. Any items which are rarer than the set rarity will be "rollable". But instead of everyone seeing a roll/pass popup per item, only the leader will see the boxes. But instead of roll/pass he'll have a dropdown list of everyone in the group.

The leader can then link that item in chat and ask the group to roll (/roll) for the item if they want it. The leader can then himself assign that to the highest roll (unless theres some sort of blasphemous controversy).
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Re: Things to talk about

Post by Aedfrith » Mon Mar 21, 2011 12:01 pm

Yeah, understood that - sorry if I didn't express myself clearly.
Aedfrith - Yarrr! | Aldnoth - Respect mah authoritah!| Hrolfdan - Buurrp! | Rumbold - BAPPLE! | Morriarty - Yak-a-boo! | Hraldan - DORF! | Aldfryd - KYAI PAN TUO KYAI! | Aednoth - BOOM! | Rumbelina - :3 | Mishhar - Grroar!

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Cattiwen
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Re: Things to talk about

Post by Cattiwen » Mon Mar 21, 2011 4:40 pm

Augrim - I was trying to maintain some decorum by assuming anonymity, that way we could have a useful debate rather than finger pointing.

Master loot is a genius suggestion, many times all it requires is for everyone to have rolled on 1 item for my chat screen to be spammed and any comments disappear off. At least with master loot mistakes should be eliminated and there can be useful debate over item selection. I have before rolled on 3rd age items but only because I considered them only useful for deconstructing at lower levels (I don't roll on class specific stuff now).

In terms of rolling for what I consider multi class items (especially in last night's case) the 30s to make an assessment of what, 10 or so items a chest pops?, isn't enough. Hence a quick rollover and compare with my equipment is what I did, assessed it was better than I had and I rolled. To be honest at the time my mind probably wasn't on looking at the chat window at all as the other day I missed rolling on half the items as I was too busy focussing on a couple I was preparing to roll on.

To be honest you guys probably know the game better than me, so having master loot would help me pick items better. If it's non-class specific I don't really see there should be any restrictions on who rolls as long as there isn't a specific reason not to. Hence having master loot does allow someone like Augrim to say (in slower time) he'd like it for tanking.

Anyway I hope this doesn't affect my ability to join in (although I know it certainly will), but alot of us are still learning, mistakes (genuine or otherwise) will be made and lessons will be learned. I think it's a case of biting your lip and grinning your way through it ;)
Cattiwen - Lvl 85 Hunter
Cattibrien - Lvl 85 Runekeeper
Thorinyn - Lvl 24 Guardian
Cattiwin - Lvl 24 Captain
Cattiwyn - Lvl 18 Champion
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Cattiwen
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Re: Things to talk about

Post by Cattiwen » Mon Mar 21, 2011 5:28 pm

Wiploc wrote: That is it really - and then back to your point. It is a game; tomorrow comes another chance. Then why not wait 'til the class specific item comes up - and leave the current one for those to who it correlates.
Had I known that Augrim wanted it, that's exactly what I would have done, but I genuinely didn't see his request (and I am still genuinely sorry!) and I'm not going to give up an item that has better all round stats that my current item on the off chance that someone else might need it (sorry to be blunt on that point :) ).

I will try to make a point in the future of warning people that I may want to roll for an item if we're not on Master Loot (given I have time).
Cattiwen - Lvl 85 Hunter
Cattibrien - Lvl 85 Runekeeper
Thorinyn - Lvl 24 Guardian
Cattiwin - Lvl 24 Captain
Cattiwyn - Lvl 18 Champion
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