Ship advice

The Dangers of Deep Space
User avatar
Obion
Posts: 1417
Joined: Sun Dec 19, 2010 3:46 am
Location: Malmo, Skane (the country)
Contact:
Obion’s avatar
Loading…

Ship advice

Post by Obion » Thu Apr 24, 2014 1:12 pm

Been dabbing about with my ship and is wondering if it's a wise choice.

Ship: Arbitrator (7.5% tracking disruptor efficiency and 10% drone hit points and damage per lvl, my lvl = 4)
Low slots
* Drone Damage Amplifier II
* Drone Damage Amplifier II
* Drone Damage Amplifier II
* Adaptive Nano Plating II
* 1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II

Medium slots
* Omnidirectional Tracking Link II, Optimal range script
* Drone Navigation Computer II
* Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Script
* Omnidirectional Tracking Link II, Targeting speed script

High slots
* Drone Link Augmentor I
* Auto Targeting System II
* Drone Link Augmentor I
* Drone Link Augmentor I

Rig slots
* Medium Targeting System Subcontroller I
* Medium Processor Overclocking Unit I
* Medium Ionic Field Projector I

Drones
* Hobgoblin II x5
* Salvage Drone I x5
* Hammerhead II x5

Stats
* EHP: 17,844
* Targeting range: 116.9 km
* Drone control range: 117 km
* Scan res: 410.4 mm
* Sensor strength: 17.4
* Lock time on frigate: 5.1s - destroyer: 3.7s
* DPS hobgobblins: 201
* DPS Hammerhead: 321
* Speed: 240m/s
* Align time: 7.9s
* Warp out: 8s
* CPU: 431 of 435 used
* Capacitor: 587 of 719 used and stable at 85%
* No. of locked targets: 10


Here's my thoughts
I went for drones as I have 294K points in gunnery and 2.6M in drones. Fitting guns just don't seem worth it to me.
I opted to not have repair and damage control unit in low slots for more drone dps. This means I take more damage and can't repair any damage. But since I warp in at around 110km I'm hoping I can take down all the ships before they hit me.

The steel plates I chose 1600mm just because I could, and also it will hopefully give me some time to warp out if things go wrong.

Drone Link Augmentor I went for T1 before T2 as I then can fit 3 instead of 2. T1 have +20,000 m and T2 has +24,000 m, so I gain 12,000 m in drone control range.

The Auto Targeting System II only has a 60 km range but it does give me +3 targets and that's my reason for slotting it. 10 targets makes it easier for me to shift drones about.

Reason for asking
I've been looking at ship fittings on Battle Clinic and such but can't find anyone close to my choices. This made me think I might be completely off, or just chose a path no one else have (at least for uploaded fittings).
When I want to shoot something I usually just find one of those NPC sites and start hammering and it seems to be working on those in around 0.6-0.4 areas. But will it work in missions?
With missions I've only done T1 security so far but would like to try T2 and higher at some point.

I could change to a BC, Prophecy. Amarr drone Battle Cruiser. It won't make me do much more damage but the EHP will increase substantially to about 85k. Should I choose to build that one instead?
Image

User avatar
Arc
Posts: 1093
Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2011 2:59 pm
Location: Sweden

Re: Ship advice

Post by Arc » Thu Apr 24, 2014 3:47 pm

Ok, I don't have much experience with drone ships - and even less with Amarr/armour tanked ships - but I'll try to give some useful suggestions.

My initial thought when I saw the loadout was: This seems to be all about drone/damage enhancing, and very little protection. Which, when it is taken out of context, it is. You only have 1 resist mod and 1 buffer tank mod, no repper or anything else. That's it. But then I read through all your reasoning as well. :)

I think your basic idea is sound. For what you have been doing - ratting in belts/anomalies and L1S missions - going all out on damage at the expense of defense is just fine. With regards to security missions, here is the rule of thumb for them:
Level Recommended ship size
------------------------------------------------
1 --- Frigate
2 --- Destroyer
3 --- Battlecruiser
4 --- Battleship
5 --- Fleet of various ships, incl. logistics support etc.

The Arbitrator is a Cruiser, and the Cruiser size is somewhere between Destroyer and Battlecruiser (although somewhat closer to BC than Dessie I would say). Destroyers are frigate-sized ships pretty much built specifically for very high damage with a practically non-existant tank. Now, ~18k EHP is pretty low for a Cruiser, but it's a hell of a lot more than a Frigate or Destroyer would have (about 4-5 times more!), so as you can see from the list above, your intended ship would easily handle L2 security missions as well without problems. However, you may be forced to warp out of certain missions because you get swarmed.

Your tactic - warping in at 100+ km - works well for combat anomalies, but sadly you (usually!) won't have the same freedom of choice in security missions. You will get warped in right on top of the entry beacon regardless, and the same goes for missions that have multiple rooms (with acceleration gates between them), so you'll often find yourself right in the middle of a mess, so to speak. All you can do is to try and kill off as many as possible as quickly as possible - starting with the ones who are damaging you the most and working your way down, since frigates won't hit you for much (unless they're elite frigates!) - and try to survive the incoming damage. With ~18k EHP you should have enough buffer to survive most L2S encounters long enough to kill everything, but without any reps you might have to warp out and come back later.
Also remember: small mobs (frigates/destroyers) often have to close to within 5-10 km of you before they can start damaging you, while larger ships can hit you from (much) further out! :)

So yeah, 9 times out of 10 you'll be ok doing L2's in this ship. However, don't even think about bringing it into a L3S! You'll get spanked. Very hard, very quick. :D
For L3S, I whole-heartedly recommend using a Battlecruiser, since you really, really need a lot more resist/tank and higher EHP (unless you're an extremely good and well-experienced pilot, with high skills and know exactly what you're doing and what you'll be facing, in which case you can get away with it in a sub-optimal ship :P)!

I have a few (minor) suggestions regarding your fit though:
For your intended use of the ship (L1/L2 security and combat anomalies), I would say don't really bother with Hammerheads, imo. 90-95% of what you'll be facing will be frigates and destroyers, and Hammerheads (well, medium drones really) are - for lack of a better description - near-useless crap against those. They are much slower than the Hobgoblins and their damage application (and tracking!!) against small(/fast) targets is so poor that the 'paper DPS' is not even remotely close to the truth; you'll be lucky if they get any hits in at all, really. I would say keep them in the bay unless you come across a BIG 'boss' ship (Cruiser or Battlecruiser) and use them only on that target, and just use your Hobgoblins for everything else. Or even replace them entirely with another backup set (or two?) of Hobgoblins. ;)
Another suggestion - since you have so many skillpoints in drone skills and most likely have it trained already - would be to add some logistics drones to the drone bay, especially since you have (by my count) 50 m3 free space in there anyway! For example, the Armor Maintenance Bots (medium or heavy if you can get them) would take care of any repairs you might need, and you'd probably only need 1 or 2 of them (particularly if you go for the larger ones). :)
Lastly, and I mention this only because your ship has bonuses towards it, you could also try switching the Drone Navigation Computer for a Tracking Disruptor and see how that works. This could be a good defensive solution to use in emergencies, to stop you getting hit with heavy fire from e.g. an elite ship while your drones kill it off - by use with an Optimal Range script to drastically cut their firing range! :D
Archturus (the 'h' is silent!!) -- Rune-keeper, 105; Tailor
Deorwen -- Warden, 88+; Jeweller (+ Cook)
Gilbrindal -- Captain, 100; Historian
Kitsunegari -- Huntress, 100; Weaponsmith
Safirlotus -- Minstrel, (65+); Scholar
Skullrend -- Guardian, (52+); Jeweller
Nareraumo -- LM, (40+); Yeoman

User avatar
Balthelion
The Almighty
The Almighty
Posts: 4867
Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2010 5:45 pm
Contact:
Stryker’s avatar
Loading…

Re: Ship advice

Post by Balthelion » Thu Apr 24, 2014 5:32 pm

Arc wrote:Your tactic - warping in at 100+ km - works well for combat anomalies, but sadly you (usually!) won't have the same freedom of choice in security missions. You will get warped in right on top of the entry beacon regardless, and the same goes for missions that have multiple rooms (with acceleration gates between them), so you'll often find yourself right in the middle of a mess, so to speak. All you can do is to try and kill off as many as possible as quickly as possible - starting with the ones who are damaging you the most and working your way down, since frigates won't hit you for much (unless they're elite frigates!) - and try to survive the incoming damage. With ~18k EHP you should have enough buffer to survive most L2S encounters long enough to kill everything, but without any reps you might have to warp out and come back later.
Just to add to this - Many missions also have triggered waves, for example when you get within 10km of an object, which like warping into a beacon means you get swarmed fast.

It's not going to be much use to you in a cruiser (since I think it can only be fitted on battleships) but a Micro Jump Drive (MJD) is massively helpful in these scenarios, particularly for Lv4 missions. When things get too close for comfort, you can fire it up to jump 100km in your current direction without changing velocity. This is not affected by scrams either.

My Thoughts:

Just because you CAN fit a 1600mm Armour Plate (A battleship-grade plate!) doesn't mean you SHOULD. Indeed, this is probably crippling your powergrid (Using about 5/6ths by my quick googling/calculation). This powergrid could obviously be spent elsewhere (Are your drone link augmentors limited by powergrid? Bingo, you can T2 all 3). And While armour is nice, it doesn't do much without mitigations to back it up.

As Arc has said with his Ship-to-mission-level chart, A Cruiser is typically more than you need for the average level 2 mission, but less than you need for the average level 3. There will be some level 2 missions that will be unusually tough, and there is no reason why a well geared and well played cruiser couldn't complete the average L3 mission (Although unless you're in it for the challenge, a BC or BS would probably be better)

For your current intended use, it's pretty much a case of you don't really need much tank, so might as well stack DPS (Which makes the addition of the 1600mm plate an even bigger WTF than mentioned above). You probably wouldn't even have much trouble in most level 2 missions, although you'd likely receive the butthurt in missions with lots of enemies or webbing towers.

Level 3 missions you'd just be asking for trouble. Level 3 missions and above you really need to put thought into defenses as well as offense. And I daresay that the defense is the more important of the two in harder missions, than simply maxing DPS. That defense can take many forms (tactical positioning on the battlefield, more tank, transversal velocity, repping), not simply just be a case of "More EHP". And yes, This pretty much means repping for L3+. And there's always a case to be made for fitting a Damage Control II on everything. It gives a huge buff for almost no maintenance costs.

Consider an Adaptive Nano Membrane instead of the plating. Since you are using the plating II's, depending on your skills, you might not get higher % benefits until you can fit Membrane II's as well, But try the T1-M4 and see.

Do you really need the targeting booster and extra targeting range? Probably not worth it if you are pushing it well beyond your drone control range. You might be better off using something else.
Image
GW2: Taikken ~ Vasuuki ~ Artuura
EVE: Marcus Rushe
SW:TOR: Tannik ~ Celandra ~ Korrun
League | Steam | Minecraft: LeoxStryker

User avatar
nostborn
Disturber of the Peace
Disturber of the Peace
Posts: 1363
Joined: Sun Jan 02, 2011 4:53 pm
Location: UK

Re: Ship advice

Post by nostborn » Thu Apr 24, 2014 10:13 pm

What are you using the ship for? Is this just missions, anomalies? acanning? Low sec pick offs?

Are you just wanting to use drone damage and are you solely trained for Amarr ships?

While you think about that I will knock up a couple of fits to see what you think. I will use T2 mods where I can so you may need to tweak depending on skills
EvE - Nostborn Amatin / Steam - Nostborn / Raptr - Nostborn

https://zkillboard.com/character/93160905/

User avatar
nostborn
Disturber of the Peace
Disturber of the Peace
Posts: 1363
Joined: Sun Jan 02, 2011 4:53 pm
Location: UK

Re: Ship advice

Post by nostborn » Thu Apr 24, 2014 11:03 pm

Ok I have a fitting you might like to try. First one and haven't fuly tweaked and you may not be able to use all the T2 modules but you can always go meta 3/4 depending on CPU (PG will Not (Should not) be an issue with this Fit). I can provide the XML for this fit if you want to tweak this in EFT. I will also say. This fitting was done to MY current skills for the CPU and PG so it might not work fully for you depending on your skills. I can't actually use the Omni II or the Drone Link II's but I have the CPU and PG for them so they can be fit.

High
2x Dual Light Beam Laser II (Multifreq/Standard/Radio) (Different Ranges)
2x Drone Link Augmentor II

Medium
1x Large Shield Extender II
1x Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
1x Omnidirectional Tracking Link II
1x Medium Ancillary Shield Booster (Cap Booster 75/100)

Low
1x Pseudoelection Containment Field I
3x Drone Damage Amplifier II
1x Power Diagnostic System II

Rigs
1x Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
1x Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
1x Medium Processor Overclocking Unit I

Drones
5x Hobgoblin II
5x Warrior II
5x HammerHead II
5x Hornet ED-300 (Can be swapped for 5 more Hob II)
5x Salvage Drones

Details
EHP - 21340
Cap Stable at 76%
Resistances Shield - EM 53.7%/TH 49.9%/KI 62.4%/EX 68.7%


I would also add you can do LvL 3 missions with a cruiser (was doing LvL3's in an Omen at one point), they won't be a walk in the park but if you are sensible then you will be just fine, especially with this fit as you are cap stable you can keep the shield reps up almost constantly. I would also say you can do LvL4's with a BC (The brutix is great for this) again as long as your sensible. I would suggest doing lvl3's and making sure you keep an eye on the rewards., as soon as the rewards Spikes it will be a hard mission, with drones you should be able to get away with pulling range and leaving them to it as long as you are keep the line between drone control and locking range etc. Might be worth dropping the Omni for an AB in this instance though to help until you are happy with your tactics. Also great thing to do if you aren't sure you can do a mission is to ask for help in the RoE channel if someone is there or look at the missioning Wiki pages in the Web. They will give somewhat accurate mission information regarding damage types and ships to be faced.

Remember in high level missions if your unsure you can survive hit the frigs first as these are more likely to scram you (Hence the small guns in the fitting above). As long as they aren't scramming you, you can warp away as much as you like.
Last edited by nostborn on Fri Apr 25, 2014 1:14 am, edited 4 times in total.
EvE - Nostborn Amatin / Steam - Nostborn / Raptr - Nostborn

https://zkillboard.com/character/93160905/

User avatar
Arwat
Guardsman
Guardsman
Posts: 98
Joined: Sun Apr 28, 2013 4:44 pm
Location: Leiria, Portugal

Re: Ship advice

Post by Arwat » Thu Apr 24, 2014 11:09 pm

Arc wrote: Another suggestion - since you have so many skillpoints in drone skills and most likely have it trained already - would be to add some logistics drones to the drone bay, especially since you have (by my count) 50 m3 free space in there anyway! For example, the Armor Maintenance Bots (medium or heavy if you can get them) would take care of any repairs you might need, and you'd probably only need 1 or 2 of them (particularly if you go for the larger ones). :)
Not sure what Arc meant but if the idea was to use drones to rep his ship, sadly they won't because you can't lock yourself. (I tried :P)

In the DPS departement it does look fine, but I would use the Omnidirectional Links unscripted instead of one script type in each one.

About tanking, and considering you'll be going against rats, I think you should fit a rep. It is my understanding that buffer tanking only works if there is a logi in fleet. About resistances I always try to even then across the damage spectrum.
However, I must point out that Amarr ships use armor tanking because they use a lot of capacitor for lasers, and since you're not using any, why not try passive shield tanking. But, (and there's always a but in Eve's ship fitting) you won't have enough CPU for any shield extenders, relays or rechargers, and you would have to sacrifice some drone upgrades thus affecting your DPS.

About mission levels, I started doing level 3s on an Arbitrator, and there were only a couple of missions I couldn't handle, but I don't have your level skills so you could be fine.

If it weren't for the buffer tanking, it seems like a fit I would like to try... if I had the skills for it :D
Image

User avatar
Arc
Posts: 1093
Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2011 2:59 pm
Location: Sweden

Re: Ship advice

Post by Arc » Fri Apr 25, 2014 3:32 pm

Arwat wrote:Not sure what Arc meant but if the idea was to use drones to rep his ship, sadly they won't because you can't lock yourself. (I tried :P)
Yep, that is precisely the idea I had. Never having used logi myself, and being rather inexperienced with drone usage in general, it shows. :(
I know you can't target your own ship, but I just figured you could have the rep drones set to auto and they would just rep any target within their range (including your own ship), but I guess we can scrap that idea entirely then. :P
Arwat wrote:About tanking, and considering you'll be going against rats, I think you should fit a rep. It is my understanding that buffer tanking only works if there is a logi in fleet.
Nah, you can have buffer tanking without logi as well (solo). This might be slightly tricker with armour tanking than shield tanking, since armour doesn't passively repair itself like shields do, but you only need enough of a buffer to survive whatever incoming damage you take until you've killed off all the NPCs (in the mission/anomaly/whatever), and then you can just head back to a station and repair before going out again. :)
I've been using a passively tanked Caracal since I was about 1-2 months old in the game, for running L2S missions, and it just cuts right through them quickly and easily (as well as some L3's too - especially duoing!), no problem. Remember that L2S missions are designed for Destroyers, which typically have 8 weapons (and huge damage output) but practically NO tank whatsoever. So tank-by-killing-incoming-damage is the idea there, and a (sufficiently large) buffer tank is enough for that.


It was interesting to see Nost's suggestion of a SHIELD tanked fit for this particular ship, since I just assumed outright it was supposed to be armour tanked (not saying it's not possible - or feasible - to shield tank it, I just didn't think about it!). :)
However, for shield tanking, there are some small points of that fit that I'm not sure I agree with, and I think can be improved somewhat. But that's neither here nor there, unless Obi is interested in shield tanking it - in which case he'll only need to ask, and I'll share my suggestions for a shield tanked fit. :D

Apart from that, I would follow Nost's advice as he has by far the most knowledge/experience with Amarr ships and drone boats in particular. :)
Archturus (the 'h' is silent!!) -- Rune-keeper, 105; Tailor
Deorwen -- Warden, 88+; Jeweller (+ Cook)
Gilbrindal -- Captain, 100; Historian
Kitsunegari -- Huntress, 100; Weaponsmith
Safirlotus -- Minstrel, (65+); Scholar
Skullrend -- Guardian, (52+); Jeweller
Nareraumo -- LM, (40+); Yeoman

User avatar
nostborn
Disturber of the Peace
Disturber of the Peace
Posts: 1363
Joined: Sun Jan 02, 2011 4:53 pm
Location: UK

Re: Ship advice

Post by nostborn » Fri Apr 25, 2014 5:54 pm

What i would say is just post the Amendments you would make to the Tank or post your Fit Idea. This will allow Obi to play with all ideas to work a fit that would work for him.

The Tank on the above is pretty much adapted from a PvP fit arbi i have used in a roam although tweaked to make sure max drone damage was given within the CPU confines. There are very few pure armour or shield tanked ships (Those with the bonuses to either resistance or repair are the main ones). All other ships can be fit either way depending on the number of mid to low slots you have and how many you need for utility etc. No point shield tanking a PvP ships with 3 mid slots when you need 1 for point, 1 for MWD for example.
EvE - Nostborn Amatin / Steam - Nostborn / Raptr - Nostborn

https://zkillboard.com/character/93160905/

User avatar
Arc
Posts: 1093
Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2011 2:59 pm
Location: Sweden

Re: Ship advice

Post by Arc » Sat Apr 26, 2014 5:02 pm

nostborn wrote:What i would say is just post the Amendments you would make to the Tank or post your Fit Idea. This will allow Obi to play with all ideas to work a fit that would work for him.
Fair enough. Okay then, here are the differences:

[Medium]
Omnidirectional Tracking Link II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction

[Rigs]
Medium Core Defense Field Purger I
Medium Core Defense Field Purger I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I

This is a pure passive shield tank, and a very solid one at that. It is pretty much exactly the same as I have on my Caracal, and is also the foundation of the Drake passive tank. Choosing the meta4 (Regolith) extenders instead of tech2 saves a LOT of CPU, which is why the Overclocking rig can be swapped for a Field Extender and it will still fit without implants (at least it does with my skills; 404.5/406.25 CPU used). In fact, this fit (2*meta4 extenders + extender rig) will amount to MORE actual tank in reality, than will Overclock rig + tech2 extenders! Also, the meta4 extenders are much, much cheaper than tech2, so that's another plus. :)
Some numbers:
Effective HP: 26,220
Shield HP: 8453
Recharge time: 549s
Peak self-recharge: 38.5 HP/s
Shield Effective HP: 18609

This amounts to 85 EHP/s omni tank, 87 EHP/s against Serpentis NPCs, and 90 EHP/s against a Gallente damage profile. 112 EHP/s against Rogue Drones.
nostborn wrote:The Tank on the above is pretty much adapted from a PvP fit arbi i have used in a roam although tweaked to make sure max drone damage was given within the CPU confines. There are very few pure armour or shield tanked ships (Those with the bonuses to either resistance or repair are the main ones). All other ships can be fit either way depending on the number of mid to low slots you have and how many you need for utility etc. No point shield tanking a PvP ships with 3 mid slots when you need 1 for point, 1 for MWD for example.
Yeah, I surmised this was a PvP shaped fit. The buffer tank + ancillary booster more or less says as much. :P
While that combo is to be preferred (or even required!?) in PvP - where you have (very) high incoming DPS in a (relatively very) short period of time - I think it's very suboptimal for PvE endeavours.
Since in PvE you have more of a (fairly) steady stream of low-to-average incoming damage (or none-to-low, in the case of L1/L2 security missions for a Cruiser) over a much longer period of time, the very nature of the ancillary booster means you will either restore much more than you actually need at any given time (overhealing, so effectively 'wasting charges'), or otherwise be waiting around for a loooong reload of the booster (because you've depleted all booster charges/didn't have enough left when you need it). Or the third possibility, of course, which is to say: it just requires (a lot) more micro-management to use it effectively. :)

Personally (but that's just my oppinion, others might disagree), I think the passive shield tank is superior (compared to active tank or buffer/ancillary tank) when it comes to lower-level security missions/PvE content, even up to L3 if you have a sturdy ship; e.g. the Drake. Particularly if the objective is also to learn the basics of missions/PvE, it is good be able to concentrate more on enemies encountered, battlefield positioning, kill order etc. without having to worry about actively keeping the tank up as well. Just to keep a crude eye on it and warp out in case it starts getting too low. Otherwise it's easy to get swamped, I think, if you have too much to handle and think about all at the same time - but that's just me. :D

I know I had a lot of issues with that when I started switching over to using an active tank (on the Raven). Either I ran out of capacitor - because at first I was using a too large shield booster or because I had forgotten to turn it off when I was too busy with other things going on; mostly a combination of the two :lol: - or my timing was off and I started the booster too late, so the healing couldn't keep up with the damage and I was going down fast. For me it was pretty hairy (and stressful!) learning how to handle an active tank, so I would personally not recommend to others to do that whilst learning PvE basics at the same time. :P
Archturus (the 'h' is silent!!) -- Rune-keeper, 105; Tailor
Deorwen -- Warden, 88+; Jeweller (+ Cook)
Gilbrindal -- Captain, 100; Historian
Kitsunegari -- Huntress, 100; Weaponsmith
Safirlotus -- Minstrel, (65+); Scholar
Skullrend -- Guardian, (52+); Jeweller
Nareraumo -- LM, (40+); Yeoman

User avatar
nostborn
Disturber of the Peace
Disturber of the Peace
Posts: 1363
Joined: Sun Jan 02, 2011 4:53 pm
Location: UK

Re: Ship advice

Post by nostborn » Sat Apr 26, 2014 8:31 pm

Passive tank is certainly a way to go, never used one personally as im mainly Armour based for the majority of ships. One thing I would say is with the Drone arbi fit its Cap stable so even if you managed to get a shield rep on their instead of booster you shouldn't run out of cap.

As a side point if you are really thinking Drones if the way forward swap ships training to Gall ships. They are generally far better for drone damage and if you can train a decent Dominix Fit you will be able to solo pretty much any high sec mission without breaking much of a sweat. Sure the Domi may look like a massive flying potato but it has a shit hot tank and a drone bay that goes on for days.
EvE - Nostborn Amatin / Steam - Nostborn / Raptr - Nostborn

https://zkillboard.com/character/93160905/

Post Reply