Orthanc Raid Organisation

Place your democratic votes in all major kin decisions here!

Read post before voting! You can only choose 1 option per issue!

Issue 1 - One Team
0
No votes
Issue 1 - Two Teams
20
20%
Issue 2 - Same Days
6
6%
Issue 2 - Alternative Days
13
13%
Issue 3 - Fill Team 1, then Team 2
3
3%
Issue 3 - Leader decides your team
17
17%
Issue 4A - A Minimum Standard is fair
20
20%
Issue 4A - A Minimum Standard is NOT fair.
0
No votes
Issue 4B - Limit the number of Inexperienced/Undergeared players
17
17%
Issue 4B - DO NOT Limit the number of Inexperienced/Undergeared players
2
2%
 
Total votes: 98

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Balthelion
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Orthanc Raid Organisation

Post by Balthelion » Tue Dec 13, 2011 4:56 pm

Please read the post before voting in the polls, thanks.

Each Issue has 2 options.
You can only vote for one option per issue.
Please vote for EVERY issue - If you don't 100% agree with either option, pick the best option and discuss in this thread.


-----

Orthanc raid organisation and signups is going to raise a lot of issues. Since I run a democracy here, I'd like to get non-officers views on this matter as well

Issue 1 - Number of groups per week

Realisticly, at present we can only offer one Orthanc run per week. That's 12 people, commiting to a 3-day schedule. The only person with knowledge of the raid at the time of writing is myself, And i'll be commiting to this 3-day schedule. Obviously i can't be in two raids at once, and i refuse to do an additional 3-day schedule of raiding because frankly its too much.

Now I'm willing to organise the signups for a second team if the demand is there, but it will need people who can raid lead difficult content. And - initially at least - you will be going in blind. As a result, the second group will - initially at least - be at a disadvantage.

Poll Options:
  • Stick to one team (for now), even if people miss out.
  • Organise two teams - if we (team 2) fail, so be it. But we can learn and have fun along the way.
Issue 2 - Days to run groups

Assuming we do go down the route of two groups:

The winning days in our poll for when to do Orthanc were - at the time of writing - Thursday (17), Friday (16) & Tuesday (17).
The other days being Saturday (13), Sunday (11), Monday (14) & Wednesday (15).

Poll Options:
  • Run both groups on the same days. (Thursday, Friday, Tuesday)
  • Run team 2 over the alternative days (any 3 of Saturday, Sunday, Monday, Wednesday)
Issue 3 - Group signups

Assuming we do go down the route of two groups:
Assuming that they are same days, or otherwise that the person signing up is able to join both groups:
Assuming we have enough people with experience of the raid and raid leading:

Now i don't want people to consider or treat team 1 as a "Pro Team" and team 2 as a "Noob Team", so how can we avoid this?

Poll Options:
  • Team 1 fills first come first served, later signups go into group two. It's totally random, theoretically fair.
  • Bal (/Organiser) looks at signups, and decides which group to put you in. It's a bit dictatorish, and may lead to cries of "you think i'm a noob!" or "you put me in the noob team!"
Issue 4 - The "Elitist" Vs "Casual" argument

This raid is *HARD*. Deal with it.

As a result:
  • You will need to be experienced at raiding (Not necessarily orthanc, but familiar with common raiding tactics from running other raids).
  • You will need to have decent gear, a large enough morale pool etc etc to ensure you can take the seriously heavy hits that things dish out in here.
  • You will need to know your class well enough that you know what every skill does, how and when to use it appropriately. Even if this is a skill that you never normally use, or ir irrelevant to solo play (Things like Champion's Ire skills).
  • You will need to be competent enough at your class that you can fulfil your role without constant supervision from the raid leader(s). So for example, Loremasters will be expected to top up tank/healer power pools without needing to be asked, and if they are on crowd control duty they should be ready to restun mobs without being shouted at by the raid leader because you forgot to reapply.
Whether you like it or not, this means that we can't just invite anyone to the raid. The kin - as ever - will be able to help you out with advice/recommendations, or the help you get better gear. But ultimately, due to the difficulty of the raid, a judgement call is going to have to be made by the raid leader, and you will hopefully be able to respect that, and the reasons given.

Now I have always been willing to give people a chance. And within reason, I'm willing to overlook *minor* issues of undergearing and inexperience at raiding to let some people come along. But if you cannot follow clear instructions and be good enough at your class (as outlined above) then it would be unfair to let you come every week and cause the other 11 people in the raid to fail every time you come. In such circumstances, it will be explained why you aren't allowed to come to subsequent runs (for the *SHORT TERM*). The kin is of course on hand to help you out with improving your skills gear.

Poll Options
  • 4a - Given the difficulty of the raid, it is fair to expect a minimum standard of gear/player/experience.
  • 4a - Regardless the fact this is an extremely hard raid, its unfair to gate some players out - even if its only for the short term.
  • 4b - To ensure a fair chance at success for everyone, the number of people who are Inexperienced or undergeared should be limited per group
  • 4b - There should be no limits for the number of inexperienced/undergeared people per group.
Since I'm out of poll options, discuss how long you feel is a fair period of time to exlcude someone from raiding if they do not appear skilled/geared/experienced enough when given the chance to prove themselves. I'm thinking 2-4 weeks personally.

----------

General discussion/comments on the above, and any other issues you may forsee are welcome
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Re: Orthanc Raid Organisation

Post by Hal » Tue Dec 13, 2011 5:19 pm

Not too fussed on the whole 1 vs 2 teams argument, but the more loot we can get from orthanc the better, so if we can fill 2 teams, and have the raid leaders (once Brya has explained what he knows) then we should go for 2 teams. No fussed on the days tbh, alternative does allow for the discussion and progression of tactics from team to team, as well as the ability to pass locks if nothing else, without wasting an evening wiping

We absolutely have to have a minimum standard here. All those of you around at the time of OD remember how hard that was (and that was when most of us had had plenty of time farming SG/BG whatever for endgame gear), well from all indication Orthanc will be even harder, so yes we need a minimum standard, and I think that (minimum standard probably needs to be set quite high to begin with). From that I mean that people need to have at least some exp raiding before (and all that entails), have a reasonable level of gear with at least a certain amount of morale (ofc the better the gear the better here) and know how to play their class well in a group scenario

I know this is going to sound harsh too but I don't think we should be taking Inexperienced raiders to begin with (cause this is going to challenge even the most experienced raiders we have in the kin), and I do not think we should be taking undergeared people to orthanc at all. Getting a decent level of gear so far in RoI hasn't been too difficult, and it doesn't look like has changed too much since Update 5, so gearing should come before doing Orthanc imo (since its going to eat even the best geared people alive). Same deal with inexperienced people tbh, the older raids are ran reasonably frequently in kin since RoI released, and they are certainly a good place to start when beginning a raiding career

I know not everyone will agree with my point of view, or deem it to be too harsh and I am half tempted to agree with you on that, but this will be the hardest content Turbine have given us, and I think we need to act accordingly, at least at the onset. As we start getting more exp in the raid, this might change and we might be able to afford to take more inexperienced raiders

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Re: Orthanc Raid Organisation

Post by Aedfrith » Tue Dec 13, 2011 5:31 pm

I certainly think that minimum spec is as advertised elsewhere - at least all the Draigoch non-raid pieces.

I'd be tempted to specify minimum morale guidelines depending on armour. No more 3k RKs or minnies who die when a monster breathes in their general direction...
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Re: Orthanc Raid Organisation

Post by andrac » Tue Dec 13, 2011 5:50 pm

my opinion. Since boss is the only one who actually saw the raid and he was scared of its dificulty, that mean much for us, who are not so experienced.

- both teams. more ppl willing to wipe, more ppl willing to learn. Brya cannot split but i am sure some potent :) officer will lead us to wiping/victory.
- same days: flexible schedule on the remaining days for the kin
- we must have a minimum standard to join
- I don't think we should be taking inexperienced raiders
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Re: Orthanc Raid Organisation

Post by Ufast » Tue Dec 13, 2011 5:54 pm

I can see that the loot list may be an issue if both raids are running on the same day and also people would be able to sign up alts for the other days if we were struggling to fill spaces if we go for alternate days
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Re: Orthanc Raid Organisation

Post by Hardric » Tue Dec 13, 2011 6:09 pm

It's a difficult question. I don't think anyone will complain if you hand pick a team tbh. Seems as fair as anything else to me (class requirements, gear requirements, trait requirements, beer cookie and elf requirements). We have more people than places and nobody wants to be banging head against wall with wipe after wipe, well up to a point. As long as there are other raids to go to, eveyone's happy.

As Andy says, it's inevitable that everyone will want to be with Brya's group to start with, he's the only one with experience, so that is the pro group.

Mind you, if you hand pick a team and fail... well, you'll only have yourself to blame :P
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Re: Orthanc Raid Organisation

Post by Albric of Rohan » Tue Dec 13, 2011 8:17 pm

Here is what i voted and why:

Issue 1:
Organise two teams: the more people do this raid, the faster they learn, regardless of success or failure.

Issue 2:
Alternative days: It seems the most flexible in terms of schedule, but both options are OK for me in the end.

Issue 3:
Leader determines raid composition: The raid is hard, so I assume balancing the raid is mandatory for a reasonable chance of success.

Issue 4a:
Impose a minimum standard: yes, it is fair to impose a minimum standard, if it is not too high. Asking for a few raid pieces or equivalent should be OK. That is not too hard to achieve. Plenty of opportunity to get school/library runs.

Issue 4b:
Limit: Yes, i would impose a maximum on the number of inexperienced people. However, if the raid allows it, I would also strive to take at least one or two along. The only way to improve raiding skills is to raid.


Does the raid content allow dedicated training raids? If so, I'd strongly suggest organising a few of those. Turn down the pace of the raid and explain why something went bad or went well.
We used to do that once in a while in my previous game, where I was guild leader. It had a major effect on our efficiency.
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Re: Orthanc Raid Organisation

Post by Balthelion » Tue Dec 13, 2011 8:48 pm

The first few runs will be training runs until people start picking up the tactics.
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Re: Orthanc Raid Organisation

Post by Dumnomii » Tue Dec 13, 2011 8:59 pm

2 teams if there is enough interest, on alternative days, so advice can be given on TS or the real mad people could be in both teams.

Only way to get a real understanding of content is to see it. And as to failing well its all part of learning process, it wil be the same for both groups on most of the wings, we will learn by dying , analysing and trying again.


yes minimum gearing / morale , no to hard figures or must have 4 peices of draigoch, the raid leaders have enough experience to gauge people by a rule of thumb, and sometimes 4 draigoch is not the best way to gear depending on class.
It may seem a bit random , but basically if the raid leader says no, well you just have to trust them and they will make some suggestions you can hopefully take on board.

(Like LMs I know you have a couple of melee skills, but seriously this does not justify taking might/physical attack gear!)


Raid leader gets to cherry pick from signups, he will have a composition he feels comfortable with to progress things, and people he knows will follow instruction. No matter how expereinced a raider some one is, if they deliberatly flaunt raid leader instructions then well dont expect to get on his raids for hard content like this.


As we get more expereince and more comfortable with the Instance, than we can start to include a 'training slot'

Besides as people proove themselves in the instances and in other raids they amy well find themselves invited anyway. Discipline, spatial awareness , tatics can all be demonstrated in things as 'simple?' as GB runs, as well as the odd DN BG OD run that is organised.
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Re: Orthanc Raid Organisation

Post by Obion » Wed Dec 14, 2011 1:43 am

My votes and why.

1. Two teams
Don't mind beeing in an all newbie, would be fun. But I feel strongly about it beeing fun. Wining and complaining about occasional wipes has gotten me tired. Testing, trying and eventually success is a great feeling. People who start complaining after first death kills the fun for me.
Listening and doing every bit possible to succeed I take for granted from everyone joining a raid. Also be patient and listen to advice, hopefully some of the complaining of late will be changed into advice further on. A new/newer raider can hardly learn anything by complaints but alot from advices. Those who can't should just skip raiding all together.

2. Days
Doesn't matter to me as RL has a nack of killing my ability to sign up either it be week days or weekends. Read previous post and different days have good points from other posters so I'll go with that since I think it would suit most people best.

3. Leader decides
If someone has the will and takes the time to organise a raid, atleast they should have something to say about what classes and who best suits the situation. See last for more...
Oh, and my thoughts about tacticts in the raid. The leader decides to what ever end and all else follows. If failure, then suggestions can be spoken. There's only one capatin on the ship and all that...

4. Minimum standard
About same as no. 3 above. Besides, the 4 pieces of Roi raid gear is easy enough to get by doing skirm/Barrow and Sch/lib. Also a chance to get some nice bling to go with it.

5. Do not limit inexperiensed
Quick answer, to my knowledge this is still a casual kin. If things have changed please let me know.
This issue also somewhat combine issue "Leader decides" and "number of runs".
With 2 runs more people have a chance to learn and gain experience, and it would also be a fair assumption that appointed leader won't just skip a run just because there's mostly non cardcore signed up. (see first line under no. 5)
For those really fresh raiders a set of DN and/or BG runs to learn the basics of raiding tactics would be a nice starter offer.
For the undergeared part, see no. 4
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