Kin Raid Looting System

Place your democratic votes in all major kin decisions here!

Do you approve the proposed looting system

Yes
24
92%
No (Please explain why)
2
8%
 
Total votes: 26

User avatar
Balthelion
The Almighty
The Almighty
Posts: 4849
Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2010 5:45 pm

Kin Raid Looting System

Post by Balthelion » Fri Jun 17, 2011 11:32 am

Please read all the information below, Then use the poll to cast your vote. If there is anything which you are unsure about, please ask in this thread.

Please only vote once you fully understand all this information and are ready to make your final decision, as this is in important decision for the kin going forward:


-----

Proposed Looting System for ALL Kin Raids

All Raids will use Suicide Kings as a loot distribution system.

What is Suicide Kings?

Suicide Kings is a loot system where everyone who joins raids is on a list. When it's time to loot a chest, all shiny loot (Armour Coins, Jewels, Symbols of Celebrimbor/Elder King etc) are distributed using the list.

The highest person in the list *in the raid* is offered the option to "Suicide" for any one piece of the shiny loot on offer. If they suicide, they fall to the bottom of the list*. They may also choose to pass if they are not interested. The leader will work their way down the list, asking each member if they want any of the shiny loot from what has not yet been taken. If there is still shiny loot left after all 12 people have asked, the raid can /roll for the loot instead, so you can still get the loot if you like it, but not enough to suicide for it. Note: If you "Pass", you cannot change your mind if someone else lower in the list in interested in Suiciding (and therefore trump them).

*When someone suicides, everyone else who is 1) In the raid and 2) below them in the list, will progress up the list. Note that you jump over people on the list who are not in the raid (they are locked in a fixed numerical position in the list and do not move up or down). You essentially occupy the place of the next person above you who is in the raid.

Trash Loot

IXP, Settings, any other common/crap fluff

IXP & setting distribution will be decided by the leader doing a /roll 12. This produces a number between 1 & 12, representing the people in the raid. The Leader is always 1. 2-6 represents the rest of his fellowship, in the order it appears on his screen. 7-12 represents the 2nd fellowship, as it appears on his screen. Note: In the event of a 24-man raid, the same applies as above, but with a /roll 24 and 4 fellowships.

Any other trivial loot will be offered to the group to /roll on. Highest roll wins.

Other Rules

To enforce common courtesy and fairness, you can only suicide once per night. You can however continue to /roll on any items which are offered to roll on. This includes things which have been offered for people to suicide on before being opened to rolls.


Example

A boss has been killed, and it's time to loot the chest. The Suicide List is as below.
[L] = Locked (ie, A Person not in the raid)

1 - A [L]
2 - B
3 - C [L]
4 - D
5 - E [L]
6 - F [L]
7 - G [L]
8 - H [L]
10 - I
....
....
23 - W
24 - X [L]
25 - Y [L]
26 - Z [L]


Person A is locked and not in the raid. They therefore obviously don't get the option of loot.

Person B is in the raid, and the highest ranked member in the raid. They get first pickings of any shiny loot. He decides to pass, as there is nothing he wants.

Person C is not in the raid, and is skipped.

Person D is in the raid, and the 2nd highest ranked member. He decides he likes a piece of jewellery and suicides for it. He falls to the bottom of the list. As the bottom 3 people are locked, he automatically jumps them into slot 23, previously occupied by W, who before the sucide was the 12th member of the raid (the lowest unlocked person). Everyone who was below Person D before he sucided moves up one unlocked slot. This means that Person I jumps 4 locked people into the position occupied by Person D before he suicided. Person B was above person D, so does not gain any places from this person's suicide.

Links

Lemonraids BG/OD List - An example of what a real list looks like in action (Note: Colours of names are irrelevant, just for cosmetic purposes)

Rangers of Eriador List - An interactive example. Log in with the following details to play around with it in admin mode. Please read the instructions on the list once logged in before making any changes - You should only be using the Suicide Button to see how the system works.

User: Rangers
Pass: Eriador

Personal Comments / Observations

The list can look intimidating is there is a large number of people on it. However Only the people who are IN THE RAID and above you on the day actually count. When it comes to looting, the list is always 12-people long. Don't forget, It's possible that everyone above you could pass.

Depending on who joins, you could see yourself jump A LOT of places with a single person's suicide. It has been known to happen that people have progressed 14 places after a suicide on the Lemonraid list.

Suicide Kings encourages more flexibility for group composition, and what classes people can bring to a raid. If you are at the bottom of the list and (In theory at least) don't stand a good change of getting a piece of loot you're after, you can come with another character to give the group better balance, and still work towards earning gear for your main character(s).

The List CAN and WILL cycle extremely fast. DN Alone drops 6 Armour Coins, plus potentially one shiny jewell/cloak per boss (2 for mistress). And thats not even counting rare housing trophies. As the list will be used for all raids, this could cycle EVEN FASTER, especially if weekly raiding makes it off the ground.

Suicide Kings offers a much fairer loot system than simply /rolling for all shiny loot. With rolls, you might turn up every week for a year, and not get a single piece. You might turn up on your first run and win three pieces (this has happened numerous times in pre-SK Lemonraid DN runs). The rate at which you earn loot is directly proportional to the amount of of time you are able and willing to contribute to raids.

Whether you raid weekly or once in a blue moon, you will all earn rewards for the same amount of effort, and nothing is left to luck.
Image
GW2: Taikken ~ Vasuuki ~ Artuura
EVE: Marcus Rushe
SW:TOR: Tannik ~ Celandra ~ Korrun
League | Steam | Minecraft: LeoxStryker

User avatar
Hardric
The Elhirphant
The Elhirphant
Posts: 587
Joined: Fri Apr 16, 2010 7:15 pm

Re: Kin Raid Looting System

Post by Hardric » Fri Jun 17, 2011 11:46 am

Any tips on using the list in practice? Namely, does the raid leader print it out before a raid, update the printout during the raid, then update the list at the end of the raid? Or do you tend to flip between app windows? Maybe use an iPhone? Is there just one list? What happens if a DN run coincides with an SS run? Or, two SS runs at the same time?

Seems it should be faster and fairer than the one item per run rule. But the logisitics are bit scarey and open to controversy. Overall I'm in favour.

H
In the world before Monkey, primal chaos reigned.

http://my.lotro.com/home/character/2550 ... 377944157/

Mains (75): Elhiredriel/Elharwen/Felgard/Hardric
Levelling: Elhirphant/Ashrisa/Elhiras
Alts: Feldin/Hardalin

User avatar
Aedfrith
Posts: 2468
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2011 5:36 pm

Re: Kin Raid Looting System

Post by Aedfrith » Fri Jun 17, 2011 11:51 am

Seems logical - what could be painful is maintaining a list and updating between raids. What would happen, for example, if two DN raids were on at the same time? Our kin is large enough that this could conceivably be an issue.

Would it only apply to raid instances? What about 6-mans with ph4t l3wt such as SG, SS, LT?
Aedfrith - Yarrr! | Aldnoth - Respect mah authoritah!| Hrolfdan - Buurrp! | Rumbold - BAPPLE! | Morriarty - Yak-a-boo! | Hraldan - DORF! | Aldfryd - KYAI PAN TUO KYAI! | Aednoth - BOOM! | Rumbelina - :3 | Mishhar - Grroar!

User avatar
Balthelion
The Almighty
The Almighty
Posts: 4849
Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2010 5:45 pm

Re: Kin Raid Looting System

Post by Balthelion » Fri Jun 17, 2011 12:13 pm

Hardric wrote:Does the raid leader print it out before a raid, update the printout during the raid, then update the list at the end of the raid? Or do you tend to flip between app windows?
As soon as someone decides to suicide, and the loot is assigned to them, the leader immediately tabs out and suicides them on the list (it's a simple one-click affair)

The Suicide List is visible at all times on the web (see the link to one of Lemonraid's lists provide). If members of the raid decide to have this open during the raid, they will need to refresh to page after someone suicides, as this doesn't happen automatically.
Hardric wrote:Is there just one list?
Our kin will just use one list for simplicity (Lemonraid uses two, for reasons i won't go into here. Consider it Junior/easy and senior/hard raids)
Hardric wrote:What happens if a DN run coincides with an SS run? Or, two SS runs at the same time?
Aedfrith wrote:What would happen, for example, if two DN raids were on at the same time? Our kin is large enough that this could conceivably be an issue.

Would it only apply to raid instances? What about 6-mans with ph4t l3wt such as SG, SS, LT?
Suicide Kings will ONLY apply to raids, not 6-man and 3-man content.

It's extremely unlikely that we would get two full kin-run raids going at the EXACT same time, for the forseeable future anyway. Two DN runs in one week however would be a possibility, but not cause an issue. There will only therefore be 12-people unlocked, with one raid going at a time (Everyone is locked when the list is not in use). In short there is no potential for conflict in how the list is used.

Hardric wrote:But the logisitics are bit scarey and open to controversy. Overall I'm in favour.
If it's about concurrent raids, see above. If not, explain what worries you and I'll adress your concerns. It may sound intimidating with my essay, but in practice it is really simple.
Image
GW2: Taikken ~ Vasuuki ~ Artuura
EVE: Marcus Rushe
SW:TOR: Tannik ~ Celandra ~ Korrun
League | Steam | Minecraft: LeoxStryker

User avatar
Hardric
The Elhirphant
The Elhirphant
Posts: 587
Joined: Fri Apr 16, 2010 7:15 pm

Re: Kin Raid Looting System

Post by Hardric » Fri Jun 17, 2011 12:15 pm

If it's a simple one-click affair, all computed automatically, then no concerns :)

Unless computer says "no" :(
In the world before Monkey, primal chaos reigned.

http://my.lotro.com/home/character/2550 ... 377944157/

Mains (75): Elhiredriel/Elharwen/Felgard/Hardric
Levelling: Elhirphant/Ashrisa/Elhiras
Alts: Feldin/Hardalin

User avatar
Balthelion
The Almighty
The Almighty
Posts: 4849
Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2010 5:45 pm

Re: Kin Raid Looting System

Post by Balthelion » Fri Jun 17, 2011 12:21 pm

Original Post is completed now (removed my "Still being Written" tags) with personal comments on the system, which may not be obvious to others from the base facts presented in my "essay" :P

I've actually set up a list on the SK website already. I'll see about adding some dummy data so people can play around with it and see how it works from a Leader/Admin's perspective. If/When live everyone except the leader(s) will just see the list of names, and will not be able to edit the list in any way.
Image
GW2: Taikken ~ Vasuuki ~ Artuura
EVE: Marcus Rushe
SW:TOR: Tannik ~ Celandra ~ Korrun
League | Steam | Minecraft: LeoxStryker

Grim
Captain General
Captain General
Posts: 1079
Joined: Sun Feb 20, 2011 6:05 pm
Location: Liverpool/Sutton

Re: Kin Raid Looting System

Post by Grim » Fri Jun 17, 2011 12:25 pm

Completely in favour of this, got me my shiny symbol yesterday after only being with the lemons for a month or so and it only took that long because everyone at the top of the list was waiting for the same thing I was! The lists really do cycle quickly and its a very simple system when in place
Grim
Grimhelmd - 75 Guardian
Turrion - 75 Captain
Tergon - 75 Loremaster
Terrann - 20 Warden
Grimthryd - 20 Champion
Grimharl - 9 Minstrel
Grimfoil - 1 Burglar

andrac
Danger Mouse
Danger Mouse
Posts: 1484
Joined: Fri Feb 04, 2011 10:29 am
Location: Neamt, Romania

Re: Kin Raid Looting System

Post by andrac » Fri Jun 17, 2011 12:58 pm

As long as this system is a patented one :) and works, i dont have doubts about him. And probabily will have better chances for good items than usual /roll. The only thing we must know is what loot will drop posibly from that boss so i may know if i should roll for first good item encountered or should i keep for the next one wich may better.
Andracy - Mins 100 (tailor) | Andrady - RK 100 (scholar) | Andracya - Burg 100 (weaponsmith) | Andrac - Hunt 100 (woodworker) | Gabytza LM 100 (jeweller) | Anduta - Warden 100 (jeweller)

Image
Image

User avatar
nostborn
Disturber of the Peace
Disturber of the Peace
Posts: 1363
Joined: Sun Jan 02, 2011 4:53 pm
Location: UK

Re: Kin Raid Looting System

Post by nostborn » Fri Jun 17, 2011 1:25 pm

tbh the armour pieces from DN are not to much of an issue and most of the usual people who will Lead a DN run know the armour pieces that drop:

Trolls - Boots
Flagit(shield) - Helm
Worm Boss - shoulders
Rune Boss - Gloves
Blind one - Legs
Missy - Chest

Im pretty sure i have those right, though may have got the worm and rune boss swapped by mistake, jewellery loot is pretty random but the raid leader will link the items in chat for consideration i am sure.

I am in complete favour of this system as i think it will move very fast with our kin, we just need to work out which members of the kin are able to lead the Raids to get the admin on the SK loot list. I would add that this List be for only relevant raids, leave Rift and hele out of it as the armour pieces from them arent great for end game (unless they add some when they scale them per level).
EvE - Nostborn Amatin / Steam - Nostborn / Raptr - Nostborn

https://zkillboard.com/character/93160905/

User avatar
Balthelion
The Almighty
The Almighty
Posts: 4849
Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2010 5:45 pm

Re: Kin Raid Looting System

Post by Balthelion » Fri Jun 17, 2011 2:24 pm

andrac wrote:As long as this system is a patented one :) and works, i dont have doubts about him. And probabily will have better chances for good items than usual /roll. The only thing we must know is what loot will drop posibly from that boss so i may know if i should roll for first good item encountered or should i keep for the next one wich may better.
See Our DN Guide on the website for full loot listings (Tactics for some bosses still needs to be written up but its still fairly simple).
nostborn wrote:Trolls - Boots
Flagit(shield) - Helm
Worm Boss - shoulders
Rune Boss - Gloves
Blind one - Legs
Missy - Chest
Correct.
nostborn wrote:jewellery loot is pretty random but the raid leader will link the items in chat for consideration i am sure.
Yup, linking items prior to offering for suicide/rolls is standard procedure. And if you do your research before the raid (see above) you will go in knowing what bits and pieces you're after.

Loot is basically one shiny per boss (two for mistress), with small chances of getting a housing trophy at each boss (exception of trolls, which has none). At each boss it's one non-set armour piece in light/medium/heavy flavours, and a jewell. Mistress is unique in that you get any two of non-set boots (light/medium/heavy), a cloak, or three jewells (It is possible to get two of the same)
nostborn wrote:we just need to work out which members of the kin are able to lead the Raids to get the admin on the SK loot list.
My thinking was if all officers created an account, they could get admin rights. Raids will almost always be led by an officer, and failing that, there will likely be an officer in the group at least. This is open to review if ever it becomes an issue.
nostborn wrote:I would add that this List be for only relevant raids, leave Rift and hele out of it as the armour pieces from them arent great for end game (unless they add some when they scale them per level).
Yes, to clarify, this applies to raids where the armour/loot is desirable for stats. Obsoloete older content where armour is just for cosmetic purposes (read: Rift) will not use the suicide system.
Image
GW2: Taikken ~ Vasuuki ~ Artuura
EVE: Marcus Rushe
SW:TOR: Tannik ~ Celandra ~ Korrun
League | Steam | Minecraft: LeoxStryker

Post Reply