Auto Loot Vs The Suicide List

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Balthelion
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Auto Loot Vs The Suicide List

Post by Balthelion » Wed Dec 19, 2012 5:32 am

Now I realise this could be a point of contention, which is why the issue is up for discussion here for everyone to have their chance to comment.

The auto-looting system introduced in Update 9 currently applies to the new "Road To Erebor" 3-mans, and the Mirkwood Dol Guldur cluster. Theres also some degree of (broken) implementation in skirmishes, although to my knowledge this only will (or is) applies to the junk chest, and the loot chest remains as always under usual loot rules.

Now, since this system automatically assigns loot to people - Loot that they are technically still /rolling for against the server, and acquiring loot if they win - This brings it into direct conflict with the Suicide List as a means of loot distribution.

Now, my personal opionion is that the Suicide list works. It's fair. While it's use for all other content remains assured, I'd agree with other kinnies that i'd like to also see it used in BG. And with BG added into the fold, to complement skirmishes, ToO & Draigoch runs (the latter of which has admittedly been a while), We're going to be seeing some fantastic weekly movement on the list.

That said, I see the issue where people are in a situation where they finally get an awesome bit of loot via Auto-loot. Lets say a Tarnished Cele, for example. Something that palyer has been desperate to get, but maybe hasn't had the time or luck to acquire. At which point the kinship says "Sorry, you can't have that. It's going to suicides, hand it over". Personally, I feel that's a bit like being loot nazis, Potentially being unfair or alienating to casual/newer members of the kin who come to the raid. My fear is that this could be seen as some sort of dictatorship for loot, which nudges us more towards being a "hardcore" kinship, which i don't want. The last thing I want is some internal kin politics over an issue like this, because - quite frankly - I've grown tired of some of the disputes that have cropped up over the last year and been blown out of proportion.

So that's what this post is about really - How we intend to adapt to or integrate the new auto-loot system into our kinship. We have two main options:

Just Let auto-loot do its thing
  • Let the system work as intended
  • People get shiny loot if they win rolls against the server, while not denying other players of their chance in the process (If Two Agi classes both roll above the magic number behind the scenes, they can both get the super rare shiny item)
  • If a kinny doesn't need the item, they can do what they like with it. That could mean AH, but i suspect (for items/gear at least) they would offer it for free to kinnies that might be interested in it.
Use suicide list for all loot
  • Everything that drops, even though it's in a certain players bags already would have to be treated as property of the kinship until the end of loot assignment
  • Suicides to be offered on the loot as per normal rules.
  • Rolls to be done on any items remaining after suicides
  • The player with custody of the item in question will have to player trade it to the winner.
  • If no-one wants to roll on it, presumably it stays with the player who has custody of it. Again, to sell on AH or donate to kinnies not in the raid at their discretion.
-----

Now i know that the majority of the vocal people on the forums are the more regular raiders.
And by extension, i suspect that the majority of them would be in favour of maintaining suicide list use for new raids implementing auto-loot.
Which is why i'd love to hear EVERYONE'S opinion on this issue, no matter how new/inexperienced/whatever you might be, to ensure a fair outcome for all.
All voices will be heard.


This isn't a poll (yet), merely a discussion. And nothing will be actioned until the new year at the earliest.

This weeks BG will just be using the auto-loot as intended, to allow us to progress through the raid as fast as possible and learn the changes, since the lack of locks means we can't come back another day to finish it.
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Re: Auto Loot Vs The Suicide List

Post by Gal » Wed Dec 19, 2012 8:08 am

You can try out the auto loot system for a while first. If most people find it frustrating revert to the suicide list.

I've not done any raiding so I have no idea what it would be like.

Just a thought.
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Re: Auto Loot Vs The Suicide List

Post by Bjoras » Wed Dec 19, 2012 9:49 am

I'm slightly in favor of using the auto-loot system. With my luck I'll probably never see a symbol again, but it would be nice to get rid of the looting progress. Takes way too long to go through the SK list all the time, and I'm sure not many leaders enjoy it very much either.

We could at least do a few raids with the auto-loot and see how it feels. If it doesnt seem fair at all I'm for keeping the SK.
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Re: Auto Loot Vs The Suicide List

Post by Baz » Wed Dec 19, 2012 10:17 am

My opinion is this:

We have used the suicide list for a reason. The reason being is that it has been and still is the fairest way to distribute the loot within "A Kinship". Just because the game now implements, as a default, a forced random rolling looting system that does not mean we have to adopt it is our default system for much sought after items. The system the game now defaults to is aimed more towards PuG's. You will notice that everything except some class specific items are now BoE. The reason for that is to allow kinships like ours that use an alternative looting system like a version of Suicide Kings, to still be able to implement it.

I would still like us to keep using the Suicide system as it is a tried and tested way for loot to be distributed. Whereas rolling is just too random. What if the same player or few players keep winning all the loot and are not willing to share much of it with the kin. Which I have seen happen before. Or folks have put in alot of time and effot learning new instances over weeks on wiping raids only to have someone come in on their first time and walk off with that loot peeps have worked so hard for...........We can't just expect folks to be mature about things like this. Once the Green Eyed Dragon strikes, then things start to go a bit pear-shaped.

This can and does lead to ill-feeling within a kinship. I have seen it before, it ain't pretty and can lead to all sorts of nastiness...

These reasons are why Suicide Kings variations exist. So peeps get a fair crack of the whip and peeps that make the effort are rewarded.

Yes it can take a few minutes longer to sort the loot. So what?

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Re: Auto Loot Vs The Suicide List

Post by Danfast » Wed Dec 19, 2012 10:41 am

Don't even know how to start on this.
Turbine made this loot change just to avoid the situations when noobs that roll for different items that are not for their class.
And when I state noobs I mean 2 things:
- first one: the players that do not know what their class main stat(s) is/are even though they are at 85
- second one: the ignorant players that don't even bother to read the stats and just roll for everything. This one particularly annoys me.
This happens very rarely in the kin (I don't remember ever happening to me in kin).
As Baz stated, I perfectly agree, this system was done more for pugs.
I would vote for the suicide list over this system, not only because I am one of the more active members, but because it's the fair thing to do.
Each person who participates deserves the chance, at some point when they reach top, to get what they want.
If I am lucky enough (and some of you will state that I am) to win a symbol (or another item) and I am not the first one from the raid I would trade it with the person who would like to suicide for it.
It seems fair this way. We play as a kin, as a group, each of us deserves the chance of getting good gear and having more players better geared makes the groups chances to success higher.
As a side note, I think presence on TS should be mandatory for the raid members and taken into account. This might help to speed up the looting process, instead of writing on raid chat, waiting another 10 minutes for the person to which is written to see what's about and another 5 minutes for the answer. This saves time for everybody.
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Re: Auto Loot Vs The Suicide List

Post by Elc » Wed Dec 19, 2012 12:30 pm

I got quick idea - called "suicide club" :mrgreen:

Any kin member freely choose to join club, which puts him on SK list. Members may leave club any time, but if leave, then cant join anymore.
So, when it comes distribute loot:
Any stuff club member got assigned :
1. goes for SK first
2. If noone suicides, goes for club member rolls
3. If club members passes, goes free for all rolls

if non-club member got assigned something, he do as he pleases.

But I suppose this might be very time consuming, anyways I support keeping SK.
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Re: Auto Loot Vs The Suicide List

Post by Danfast » Wed Dec 19, 2012 12:56 pm

Sibhalfar wrote:I got quick idea - called "suicide club" :mrgreen:

Any kin member freely choose to join club, which puts him on SK list. Members may leave club any time, but if leave, then cant join anymore.
So, when it comes distribute loot:
Any stuff club member got assigned :
1. goes for SK first
2. If noone suicides, goes for club member rolls
3. If club members passes, goes free for all rolls

if non-club member got assigned something, he do as he pleases.

But I suppose this might be very time consuming, anyways I support keeping SK.
This won't work for some reasons.
The non-club players will think that the members of the club are elitist, which is not true for this kin.
Also, why would the members of the club, who play together much of the time, want to fellow with non-members? The non-members have different rules (no rules actually) and the club members do not benefit something from it.
That's why everyone should follow the same rules, whatever those are or will be.
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Re: Auto Loot Vs The Suicide List

Post by Hal » Wed Dec 19, 2012 12:58 pm

I've never been a fan of the SK system, although I've always gone along with it because its fairer than free rolls as people have said before, and because I couldn't think of a better system to suggest.

That being said I think we should give the auto-loot system a trial for the first couple of runs in BG and try to get a feel for how its background mechanics work (ie. we think it rolls an unseen RNG in the background for all relevant classes and then gives the loot to the highest of those rollers. But does this person then stay on the potential RNG roll list, or do they get dropped off it until others of their class have recieved some loot?). If we notice that the loot distribution appears to be skewed, and that the same people seem to be winning repeatedly on the same run (ie not on separate nights) then we can always fall back on the SK list, but since Turbine have gone to the trouble of implimenting this, I feel that we should give it a trial run.

I also agree with Bal's statement over people handing over loot for 'the kin' (which let's be honest, essentially boils down to not being them). Its all well and good theory crafting and going 'oh yeah i'll give over my loot, no worries, etc', but when it comes down to the actual deed, of giving away that really nice piece of jewellery we've been after, or a Cele, etc, it suddenly becomes a lot harder to give it away, and I know I wouldn't be too happy giving it to someone else and then seeing them running around in what started as MY loot

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Re: Auto Loot Vs The Suicide List

Post by Balthelion » Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:38 pm

Danfast wrote:This won't work for some reasons.
The non-club players will think that the members of the club are elitist, which is not true for this kin.
Also, why would the members of the club, who play together much of the time, want to fellow with non-members? The non-members have different rules (no rules actually) and the club members do not benefit something from it.
That's why everyone should follow the same rules, whatever those are or will be.
My fear it that casual players within the kin could also argue that having to hand over loot in their bags for suicinding could be seen as a form of elitism or "hardcore" attitudes. They might not be able to raid often/regularly enough to feel they are seeing enough rewards from SK. And lets be honest, when it comes to Cele's, theres almost always a guy above you, and he's always going to suicide for it with the current drop rates. These players might consider that they have already won the loot (Which, lets be honest, they have), so that taking it away from them for SK could be the unfair option.

Just being devil's advocate here. Theres always two sides to an issue :)

Agreed that the rules should be "one size fits all". Thats why this discussion is in place to find that sweet spot.
Hal wrote:That being said I think we should give the auto-loot system a trial for the first couple of runs in BG and try to get a feel for how its background mechanics work (ie. we think it rolls an unseen RNG in the background for all relevant classes and then gives the loot to the highest of those rollers. But does this person then stay on the potential RNG roll list, or do they get dropped off it until others of their class have recieved some loot?). If we notice that the loot distribution appears to be skewed, and that the same people seem to be winning repeatedly on the same run (ie not on separate nights) then we can always fall back on the SK list, but since Turbine have gone to the trouble of implimenting this, I feel that we should give it a trial run.
Loot is independant for each player.
  • You presumably get bounties by default
  • If you beat a trivial roll (30-40 maybe) You get a relic/ixp (These might be independant roll checks).
  • Then, another roll for shiny loot. Presumably a moderate roll (maybe 50-60+) will net you a purple, while a high roll (80-90+) will instead net you a blue.
  • Further roll checks for celes/starlits/remembrance etc.
Blues and purples have been confirmed by devs to be decided by the same loot checks.
Other items/categories i'm not sure of.
But in theory, two very lucky people can get the same awesome drop.
Hal wrote:I also agree with Bal's statement over people handing over loot for 'the kin' (which let's be honest, essentially boils down to not being them). Its all well and good theory crafting and going 'oh yeah i'll give over my loot, no worries, etc', but when it comes down to the actual deed, of giving away that really nice piece of jewellery we've been after, or a Cele, etc, it suddenly becomes a lot harder to give it away, and I know I wouldn't be too happy giving it to someone else and then seeing them running around in what started as MY loot
This. Not necessarily on a personal level, but you can bet there WILL be someone who feels this way, whether they do eventually hand it over or not. And what happens if they say no? Awkward. Cue unwanted politics and opinions of other players being changed, perhaps irreversibly, causing unfriedly atmospheres in the kinship. This i don't want to see, at any cost. And is why Although I'm 100% in favour of the suicide list, don't simply want to rubber stamp this process to use SK to override the new auto-loot system.
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Re: Auto Loot Vs The Suicide List

Post by Danfast » Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:57 pm

Basically, Turbine instead of making life easier they made it harder.
Baz was spot on on saying this was made for pugs, where you don't care about the other players, as you are likely to play with them that much.
Another thing that annoyed me is the xp from crafting and from the festival quests.
My rk was lvl 7 for a reason and now he's lvl 9 just by crafting and doing 1 festival quest.
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