Suicide Rule Amendments

Place your democratic votes in all major kin decisions here!

What measures do you think we should take?

Disallow the bottom person from Suiciding
2
10%
One suicide per night
10
50%
No changes
7
35%
Don't Know
1
5%
 
Total votes: 20

Amiarah
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Re: Suicide Rule Amendments

Post by Amiarah » Sun Oct 28, 2012 1:23 pm

Cattiwen wrote:With a 2nd lists for normal drops I'd have no issues with the person at the bottom suiciding for an item that no-one else wanted.
This would ensure no movement whatsoever on the symbol/crystal list and imo would just make the list useless. Ofc everyone wants a symbol, but if u want a piece of gear, u suicide for it. Thats the entire purpose of the list, be it jewelry, teal gear or symbol/crystal. If u think the symbol is emportant enough to have everyone else geared missing only a symbol to complete it, or if u cba about the symbol enough to gear up first, seeing as symbol makes very little difference on the content we have now.

If ppl cant play alot, doesnt mean u get put down on the list. Means u wont rise, but u maintain your spot, making the ppl able to raid more moving faster. That is for me most fair.

Im amazed that ppls greed always comes out in release with new stuff. Why do everyone want everything now? I rather have something to game for, for a longer period of time. I think this entire thread is beneath us. Cmon guys.
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Arc
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Re: Suicide Rule Amendments

Post by Arc » Sun Oct 28, 2012 3:58 pm

I'd just like to point out (yet again) that having TWO lists does not make more sense - in fact, it makes no sense at all.
It has been discussed many times before, yet the point remains the same: Having two lists is just a way for people who want 'everything' to get all they want in the here and now, without really sacrificing anything in terms of their chances (i.e. position) for something better that may come later. Which defeats the whole point of having the SK system in the first place.

So if you want to - again - drag up the discussion about 2 different lists, then I will - again - counter with the argument that we either use the _ONE_ SK list we have as it is intended, or we ditch the system entirely and put EVERYTHING to free rolls! We have been over this before; you can't have it both ways, people.

Everything is subject to the SAME suicide list; you either suicide for something you want, or you do not - it's your choice to make. Use it or lose it. You pay a price either way. As it should be! That is all.
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Cattiwen
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Re: Suicide Rule Amendments

Post by Cattiwen » Sun Oct 28, 2012 4:50 pm

Amiarah wrote:If ppl cant play alot, doesnt mean u get put down on the list. Means u wont rise, but u maintain your spot, making the ppl able to raid more moving faster. That is for me most fair.

Im amazed that ppls greed always comes out in release with new stuff. Why do everyone want everything now? I rather have something to game for, for a longer period of time. I think this entire thread is beneath us. Cmon guys.
If you can't play that often and someone above you suicides someone below you can jump above, just ask Aed.

As for your comments about greed, I'm quite frankly insulted if it's in any way directed at me. The SK list has existed for the last few months (well before crystals appeared) mainly for clasp drops or any Too T2 drops. List movement was nearly non existent save for those, reaching the top took a long time. Now I'm being greedy waiting for a symbol to appear as I don't get much of a chance to run in Pugs?

If lists are going to cause these many issues do away with them. I said before RoR that the main aim for the kin should be to ensure that EVERYONE is well kitted out to give raids the best chance of succeeding. If the SK list is preventing this, do away with it, we'll just rely on luck with rolls, or people being generous to others allowing them to gear up.
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Amiarah
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Re: Suicide Rule Amendments

Post by Amiarah » Sun Oct 28, 2012 5:02 pm

If ppl cant play alot, doesnt mean u get put down on the list. Means u wont rise, but u maintain your spot, making the ppl able to raid more moving faster. That is for me most fair.

Im amazed that ppls greed always comes out in release with new stuff. Why do everyone want everything now? I rather have something to game for, for a longer period of time. I think this entire thread is beneath us. Cmon guys.
If you can't play that often and someone above you suicides someone below you can jump above, just ask Aed.
What I mean is. If u are on spot 14. The ppl around u will change their spots if u are not in the raid, but u will still be at spot 14.
As for your comments about greed, I'm quite frankly insulted if it's in any way directed at me.
Its not just directed to you, but if I understand the two list suggestion right, then yes, I think it is greedy. If that is not your intention, then I might not understand it right and Im sorry for that. SK list is for drops in a raid, its what we use it for today imo. Ppl are asked for teal if they want to suicide or for symbol. Its up to you how u want to use your spot in the list. One is enough for its intentions as Arc said.
If lists are going to cause these many issues do away with them. I said before RoR that the main aim for the kin should be to ensure that EVERYONE is well kitted out to give raids the best chance of succeeding. If the SK list is preventing this, do away with it, we'll just rely on luck with rolls, or people being generous to others allowing them to gear up.
The list is not causing any issues whatsoever. Its the ppl using it that are. And if ppl do not raid, they cant really get the gear. I am willing to do everything to help ppl out. But I am not willing to give ppl stuff that is not in the raid, just because they cant raid. How u use the list is up to you. But one is enough.
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Cattiwen
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Re: Suicide Rule Amendments

Post by Cattiwen » Sun Oct 28, 2012 5:35 pm

The list exists, the rules for the list exist, people not suiciding is a personal choice. If people not suiciding is causing issues then the only resolution I can see is to do away with the list or have more lists. People can't be forced into suiciding to "improve list movement" and they're not doing anything wrong.

The only "issue" we really had was people who had suicided (and thus being at the bottom) getting loot because no-one else thought it was worth suiciding. The resolution suggested was that you could only suicide for one item per night. If that is what is implemented (and it is a rule outside of how the SK list works) so be it.

What we can't do is blame people for not suiciding. In my case I know that my only real option (until they're released in the store or skirmish trainers) for getting key loot is through kin skirms, therefore I know that when I suicide it will be for something that I know will give me the most benefit. Currently most skirm loot is not really worth suiciding for as it's all minor increase kit that is probably only worth rolls (and we have in the past used normal rolls in skirmishes with the SK list for raids only). The reason is was suggested for skirmishes was to try and ensure a fairer distribution of the loot, however if this is not happening/working that is why I suggested either a second list solely for the skirmishes, or not using the list at all.

I'm not really a loot hoarder and I'm not out to be the first one to have the best of everything or showing off that I have 3000 Will or something like that. I'd much rather (as I've said) ensure that the kin raid I'm in has the best chance of success, meaning that the people I'm raiding with know their jobs and have the kit necessary to be successful (kit still being secondary though as skill is primary). In the same way that I will always use my own mats (save for things like crests or sigils) for making stuff for other people - this is especially true when they are regular raiders (i.e. the core of people I trust). I know others do the same for me - it stems to the discussion yesterday on kin chat about respect and trust. There are only a few people I respect within the kin, these are usually the ones that can be outspoken, but have reasons for it, but that also I trust implicitly within a raid to always have my back (though Nost is probably bored with in combat ressing my Hunter!).
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nostborn
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Re: Suicide Rule Amendments

Post by nostborn » Sun Oct 28, 2012 7:49 pm

The way i see it, we want to maximise the list movement and not gimp people that want to suicide and from what i can see there is only one way to do that. Especially seeing we have 3 skirms a night with the possibility for up to 12 moves per night.

Now for the suicide list to work well you need to be losing something when you drop, be that one drop or 11, therefore i would suggest follow the normal rules on the first raid/loot item (everyone can suicide even the last person as they have taken the time to join the raid at least). Then for the next round of loot (this includes next item and next raid) the person at the bottom is blocked from dropping (hence has lost something). This block is essentially a one item block or at least until they move off the bottom of the list (and this comes into the normal SK rules when someone high on the list drops they are not allowed to drop again at the bottom of the list, essentially getting a free item). The block is only there for the person on the bottom of the list if they have dropped from the bottom place on the list.

So in point.

- Normal SK rules apply for the first lot of loot, even the last person can drop
- If the person at the bottom suicides in the first instance of the loot then they are also barred from dropping again as per normal list rules
- Follow the Normal SK rules for the those that do drop, having the last place barred if they have dropped
- This allows for SK list movement and gives a consequence for dropping from last place.
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Danfast
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Re: Suicide Rule Amendments

Post by Danfast » Mon Oct 29, 2012 3:06 pm

First of all I wanted to point out that I didn't read all of the comments. I voted for 1 suicide per night.
Seems ridiculous to not allow the last person to suicide, at least one time; it's their option and that's it.
I don't know about someone else, but the only thing for which i will suicide is the symbol, i don't care about something else.
The differences are not that high on the "new" pieces and i have good gear on all my toons to manage.
When the instance cluster will be up most of the new jewellery will be equal or better with the skirmish ones and even easier to obtain.
Probably some of you share the same thoughts, some have different thoughts, i respect everyone and also everyone's decision to suicide or not for an item.
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Re: Suicide Rule Amendments

Post by Danfast » Tue Oct 30, 2012 11:38 am

Should we start applying the 1 suicide per night rule? Last night there was a moment where everything was confusing and no one wanted to take a decision.
Thanks to Bullett, who agreed to go on rolls when he was the last on list and suicided for something else before, the item went on rolls and no one got upset.
I'm in for that rule, no matter what item it is, and if nobody wants it or it is wanted by the person who already suicided, it goes for rolls. If the person who already suicided wins the roll, well, that's it and the person can take it.
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Dumnomii
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Re: Suicide Rule Amendments

Post by Dumnomii » Tue Oct 30, 2012 8:55 pm

If it goes to rolls of course anyone can roll on it, and do not worry Dan, you can win as many items as your loaded dice choose to go for ;) there is no limit to how many rolls you can win in one night.
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Re: Suicide Rule Amendments

Post by andrac » Wed Oct 31, 2012 3:00 pm

well we all knew that some ppl are gonna be disavantaged when starting to use the SK list. And SK is less cruel than DKP, remember that. I see many complains around, that the ppl dont have so much time to raid, that their class are less required in the raids so they get low chances to enter etc. That is how Turbine is messing with us, giving us a small slice of bread and i can guarantee that in 2 months we will buy symbols from skirmish vendor like before in Isengard. Also i know u all have noticed that the jewellery from skirms are maybe with 5% better than the old one and i still think that the majority of 75 content gear is still superior than the new ones, wich will make ppl only to want the bloody symbols from skirms to suicide for it.
Separate lists for diferent content is a nightmare and frankly will be too much for the lider to spent so much time locking/unlocking the spots.

Regarding our discution, NOT suiciding if u have the last spot i think is fair because u drop to the last spot allready, so how can u suicide if u are allready the last one? This rule can be applied like Nost said, if in the second run someone else suicided and u are not the last one, than u can suicide again. Right?

Let enjoy the new content and peace all :)
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