Kin values - and the issues on raiding

[Cattiwen]

It is also a good way for us all to get to know each others classes a bit more and what each is capable of/brings to the raid.

This could be a good idea, one issue with Hunters is always to do with pulling aggro. Given that I don't play tank classes, I don't know what their aggro grabbing/maintaining skills are. People are always saying Hunters should maintain their aggro better, the issue is you're also trying to do as much dps as possible at the same time. There's a balancing act to be done, but I know I can reduce my threat if I'm pulling to much by switching stance, or I can use other skills to reduce threat (or temporarily reduce it). What I don't know is whether a Guardian or Warden has another skill available to grab aggro back.

Maybe if a Hunter keeps pulling aggro a tank could say "Catti, I have no aggro grabbing skills off CD at the moment, can you reduce your aggro temporarily" or something like that.

Alot of issues can arise when people accuse other people of not doing something (like healing, dpsing, aggro grabbing etc) without realising that sometimes it's not possible (RK healing takes a while to build up attunement so the first few seconds of a fight are harder).

Understanding what we all bring to a fight and how we should all balance with each other should help.

Oh and not talking too much on TS

[Balthelion]

This could be a good idea, one issue with Hunters is always to do with pulling aggro. Given that I don't play tank classes, I don't know what their aggro grabbing/maintaining skills are. People are always saying Hunters should maintain their aggro better, the issue is you're also trying to do as much dps as possible at the same time. There's a balancing act to be done, but I know I can reduce my threat if I'm pulling to much by switching stance, or I can use other skills to reduce threat (or temporarily reduce it). What I don't know is whether a Guardian or Warden has another skill available to grab aggro back.

Maybe if a Hunter keeps pulling aggro a tank could say "Catti, I have no aggro grabbing skills off CD at the moment, can you reduce your aggro temporarily" or something like that.

Alot of issues can arise when people accuse other people of not doing something (like healing, dpsing, aggro grabbing etc) without realising that sometimes it's not possible (RK healing takes a while to build up attunement so the first few seconds of a fight are harder).

Understanding what we all bring to a fight and how we should all balance with each other should help.

Wardens don't have any force taunts. Sure, there's disco challenge, but it takes up a legedary slot, and the activation animation is longer than the force duration. That skills only use is its +40% Mitigation bonus.

I'm generally throwing out a lot of AoE agro, which pretty much guarantees me agro on anything that doesn't get force taunted (Or agroed by someone who then decides to run away from me). Generally also focusing on the RaT target (particullarly if its not something that doesnt die in <5s - like a skirmish Lt.) so that can have a bit stronger agro than everything else, while DPS murders it.

In situations where AoE agro is out of the question life is a bit harder. AoE threat over time is much stronger than Single-target up-front threat, meaning its much more likely that the DPS could temprarily steal agro early in the fight. Which is further complicated because single target threat is basically melee gambits, which have to be built and executed in melee range. Not easy is something has run half way acrosss the room to a hunter. And if i'm tanking particularly dangerous (eg, Trolls/Giants with Aoe, Leadfoot Brute etc), I'm not leading my mob train through the group to get him off you. It's your problem now

If i have to tank multiple mobs using only single target agro, I'll need a few seconds just to tag everything at least once, then return to agro spamming the RaT target to hold agro. You know me, traditionally I'm not one to say "Hey, give me 30s to get agro". When AoE is allowed, game on. Try to steal agro off me. Challenge accepted. A single mob where i'm limited to single target dps should be fine too. Multiple mobs only using single target...Yeah, a bit of teamwork helps.

A Wardens ability to get agro back depends entirely on how quickly they can be in melee range of the target(s) to build and execute zagro gambits.

[Wiploc]

Right, another post then but with a different aim

I'm probably going to do some video overviews of each class at some point in the new year too. Just to give people a flavour of what each classes roles in the group and abilities are.

You have mentioned this elsewhere Bal and though meaning to respond I just haven't gotten around to it. The idea is great. Even if being a broad overview it will absolutely give some good insights on the different classes - which will be beneficial for soloing as well as for fellowing.

It will spare us many a frustration such as those mentioned by Catti:

Alot of issues can arise when people accuse other people of not doing something (like healing, dpsing, aggro grabbing etc) without realising that sometimes it's not possible (RK healing takes a while to build up attunement so the first few seconds of a fight are harder).

And a quick pre-emptive run-down on the tanking bit:
- well, Bal has already covered the Warden which is the more technical character to play.
- the guardian is quite different and more basic in playstyle. But it holds other challenges. First off though, it should be said that the guardian - as opposed to the warden - holds a few force taunt (notice range and CD).

1. Challenge, force taunt for multible targets (7m). Great for initial grabbing. CD 45 sec.
2. Fray the Edge, force taunt for single target (25m) - a skill meant for pulling back a lost target. At least for a little while. CD 10 sec.
3. Engage, single target taunt (3m) that brings the guard on level in terms of threat level making it possible to get a new footing. CD 1 min.
4. Challenge the Darkness (legendary trait). The final panic button. Brings the guard on level in terms of threat of any mob (inside 12m) and continues to build threat. CD 10 min.

The Guardian has these skills based on pure need for having the mob on you. Mainly, a guard builds aggro on shield taunts - which are not activated unless the mobs are in fact hitting the guard. In other words - if the guard is not attacked it is close to impossible to actually tank anything. Therefore it can often be catastrophic for a guard to loose the aggro to another char. And quite a few times you will see a guard chasing a mob who has turned on a hunter/champ/LM/RK - in order to either strike with the short ranged "engage" or to make some futile attempt to regain aggro due to CD on the above skills. Of which two are "merely" force taunts - meaning that the guard will have to hope for activation of some primary skills in a fairly short window of opportunity in order to overtake the character that grabbed aggro in the first place (who are most likely continuing to go full DPS ).

Because of those challenges I love the guard - as it is indeed a character which needs understanding of mechanics by the rest of the group in order to make it perform. On the other hand I hold a great amount of respect for the guys being able to tank well on the warden - as the skillset is more technically demanding.

Guardians and wardens can both be great tanks. And there any comparison stops

[Balthelion]

I find it difficult to tank on my guard, primarily as wip as noticed it's style of tanking is to be REACTIVE. It needs to have initial agro (or force taunt), in order to get hit, unlock reactive skills and build agro. Where as my warden is a PROACTIVE tank, that will throw out agro (or buffs, or heals - to felloship as well as solo) based on my discretion as the palyer behind the keyboard.

[Arc]

It is also a good way for us all to get to know each others classes a bit more and what each is capable of/brings to the raid.

This could be a good idea, one issue with Hunters is always to do with pulling aggro. Given that I don't play tank classes, I don't know what their aggro grabbing/maintaining skills are. People are always saying Hunters should maintain their aggro better, the issue is you're also trying to do as much dps as possible at the same time. There's a balancing act to be done, but I know I can reduce my threat if I'm pulling to much by switching stance, or I can use other skills to reduce threat (or temporarily reduce it). What I don't know is whether a Guardian or Warden has another skill available to grab aggro back.

Maybe if a Hunter keeps pulling aggro a tank could say "Catti, I have no aggro grabbing skills off CD at the moment, can you reduce your aggro temporarily" or something like that.

It is always better to know what the other classes can and cannot do. And since Catti raises the question, there might be others wondering the same thing; what the tanking classes' abilities are. So I thought I'd refer to this guide in our Guides section, which explains the basics of threat, aggro and different skills/abilities that Guardians and Wardens have - a good, solid overview, well worth the read for everyone! =)

And also; if anyone has any further, more specific, questions on the Warden's abilities, how it works or how it is played, just ask me, or Neth or Bal, and we'd be happy to answer them for you!
I'm sure the same holds true for the skilled Guardians (or indeed any other class, for that matter) in the kin.

[Cattiwen]

Think I will mention then, that from a Hunter's point of view, if they are attacking a target that is being tanked, they should aim to be as close to the target as possible (notwithstanding aoe attacks etc), which means then if the hunter pulls aggro the tanks don't have to run to get it back. My tactic in the past has always been to stay as far away as possible, such that if I draw aggro I have plenty of time to drop it before said target gets to me.

However on the flip side I would say that adds (not bosses) with a maximum of 70-100k morale (depending on the attacks that are being dealt out) can be sufficiently killed with a hunter taking aggro given raid dps (this has always been my experience in the past). For other bosses (say Durchest) I know that pulling aggro on him pretty much means I will be one shotted (unless I'm quick on the aggro dump). In these situations I tend to go precision - the loss in dps isn't huge and the safety factor is quite large due to quick shot's threat drop.

However I've always gone with the fact that a Hunter that doesn't pull aggro isn't trying hard enough, but a Hunter that is constantly pulling aggro isn't playing properly. I've grown to know my tanks and know when I'm likely to be in trouble pulling aggro and when I'm not (for example I can play aggro ping pong with Netham on his Warden quite effectively, but I'm not sure I could do it on a Guardian).

I might try adding more into the Hunter guide at some point.

[Netham]

About warden aggro and positioning:

Most strong aggro gambits are relatively short range shouts (max 10m) and aggro over time, ticking like the DoTs (which most of those gambits also have). And to build those gambits u need melee or shout range most of the time.

U can start a pull if given time to prepare the gambit (and not waste any cooldows, effectively granting you double use of the same gambit if u so wish) from range with a pre built gambit so u can fire it off not depending on if you have a few seconds in melee range or not. Aggro ping pong from my part is stacking those threat over time ticks so that a hunter gets aggro for a second and then the next tick overcomes that aggro. I'm just hoping they don't crit too high. :D

Aggro management through leaching is another thing. I'm basically unable to touch a fellows aggro if they're more than 25m from myself. In many cases this is affected by both players' positioning, a punt, a puddle or a situation where everything is moving around or being kited. (Kiting leaves me with very few usefull gambits anyway, if say a target I'm kiting gets peeled off.) Like Catti said, if the dps is as close as possible but still far enough not to get caught in AoEs or such, it's the easiest position for the tank too, so not too much running even if a mob is peeled off.

[Balthelion]

I rarely use agro leeches these days because the new gambits are so strong. These days i use them skills for their secondary effects (Dow > Uber Defence Buff / Conviction > Fellowship Heal) rather than the actual threat transfer. And Call to Battle is epic for a long range AoE pull, or by "Agro sniping" any reinforcement adds that appear during boss fights, so you don't have to move anywhere. If memory serves, its about 27m range.

[Netham]

Yes, the new 2 non cc breaking aggro gambits are awesome. Tho, now with people going berserk on a durch farm fest with their new SA toys, it's getting more balanced. I like using those for picking up spawning adds too. Iirc it's the 25m (add a few because of how large the manly chest is) and the funny thing with those is that the target u have and all within 10m of that target, get the aggro on them and not a radius from the tank like with morale leeches and other aoe gambits. So basically u can do an aimed aoe pull that doesn't break cc (should be fantastic for ToO trash).

TLDR - What Bal said. :D

[andrac]

i like too see how ppl are trying to not take aggro, when for minstrels is SO EASY Actually, just let me 5 sec in let say any Ortanc wing to leroy (yes, i did it before but only with hunter ) and u will see that is hard to take it back.

Reactive class, we see green stuff going down and we use skills to fill it back.

We can have:
-10% legacy from weapon
song of soothing wich lower the threat in an certain area
-40% anathem of compassion
-10% strings, -12% critted one
-15% instruments

All those being equiped, we will still take aggro. Why? Because healers must pay for others mistakes, more or less, and heal more than it should be required.
What i should say now, how to not take aggro? When dps do that, is simple, just dont dps. When it happens to me... what i said early is not an choice, because party will die. So?

- dont start to use major ballad until u hear the tank screaming. When he is screaming, than u know that they did their d0rf stuff and they should have the initial pull. Remember, major ballad is healing ~ 400. And ... multiply with 6 since u have 6 toons in your fellowship. So the tank did 2500 aggro so he can output you so quick? NO. Compassion right away, so -40%. U have allready instrument equiped and also the legacy from weapon, so another -25%. Put an Call on Greatness on d0rf to unlock his block response, from now he can manage an while. From time to time, use the song of soothing. Fear the archers lost by the little d0rf. Stay near tank not like hunters in the oposite corner of the room so the little d0rf can go easily and recover the mobs from you. All this and u still take aggro, dammit. What u will do now? Let presume u have an nice build and u will survive some hits. First think, pop an coda on you. GREAT, she critted and now u have ALL the mobs on you No, the answer is DONT HEAL YOURSELF. You will only do more threat. Instead kite, use small heals, bubble (aggro free), try to use compassion anathem and coda for 0 threat and hope for the best. IF not, feign death. If u know u will die, and the party is close to an end, but the chances are still there, bubble, use an scroll for -70% induction, use Fellowship Heart, use anathem of the free ppl and after that u can die in honor or maybe your flop is still out of cooldown and u will live.

Rune keepers.
I should not write this, since i am not the experienced around, but after Nost and Jon was no healers in our kin some time. Anyway, u may noticed that usually i am doing decent stuff on him as well and my build is pretty solide. Well RK's dont have many stuff for lower aggro.

Proactive class, we see green stuff going down and we use HoT's to fill it back.

-7% from Riffler and Chisel
-25% perceived threat from Calming verse
decreased threat from 2 skills, one on fire, one on lightning.

Best part is that we take less aggro because we heal in Hot's and they are not big as number, dont critt so often, our only aoe heal is aggro free and he CANNOT critt, so all good until now. Just include Calming verse in rotation and if u really want, SS since is instant skill (cooldown 3 sec) for decreased threat. Yes, we hit big numbers as general healing but that is because WE OVERHEAL, not like mins who respond and they are reactive. Is hard for use to survive if we take aggro so bubble your self and kite around the d0rf hoping that they are there