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 Post subject: Kin values - and the issues on raiding
PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 10:16 pm 
Master-At-Arms
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Joined: Sun Feb 20, 2011 12:35 pm
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Hey all

After recent events I think it is worth spending a bit of time on trying to come eye to eye on a few issues. I will try to make it short and to the point – hopefully it will make you read this bit all the way through.

You all know the basic values of the kin. The Rangers are defined as casual and helpful when advertising on global. And that stands. However, loose definitions of words and phrases are very much negotiable and can cause issues when people are of different opinions. In this post I will simply try to draw up the kin values as I see them and perhaps make some of you throw in some additional thoughts.

To find an undisputable starting point in terms of "casual" and "friendly" I have reached for the Longman Dictionary (quite sure some of you know that one):

Casual:
Without a clear plan, aim or intention; not serious or thorough (edit: Bal - the kin homepage doesn't live up to this. It is way too serious and well planned :) )

Friendly (of a game):
Done for pleasure or practice and not so causing or containing unpleasant feelings.

There you have it. Our values in raw form. At this point some of you may feel I have gone mental – as this is a game and not something to be too theoretical about. But honestly, we spend a lot of time together in-game. Even more time as compared to many a friend on the RL side of the screen. I find that to be a perfectly valid reason for putting a bit of effort into agreeing on a few bits – or at least to reach a point where we agree to disagree.

Anyway, based on the definitions above we basically want to have fun without being too serious about raiding, planning, teamwork or mindset in general.
That way of interpreting things are most likely not shared by all at all times. There are obviously kinnies who are very much set on beating content in a well-oiled fashion. I see myself as one of them – even though I can easily break down into a bad, mistimed joke. But according to the values this is not a problem. Unless.

Unless it directly hampers a kin raid. Because then it will end up challenging the "friendly" part as it causes unpleasant feelings. Then we do not uphold what we intend on that part. Problem is of course that if we "only" go about it in a casual way then we will most likely fail the harder raids. Luckily, most things are not cut in stone.

And I see a fairly easy way around this – by setting a simple structure. My suggestion would be for any raid leader to call the intention of an activity when putting invites in the forum. For example:

1. Casual raid. Most behaviour can be accepted.
- a bit of leroying,
- a fair level of chat,
- a less-than-100% focus on skills.
- etc. etc.

2. Hardcore raid. Discipline needed.
- Raid leader controls the chat and dictates the level of noise accepted. Which would be close to none.
- People being absolutely ready for raid. Pots, food, traits, weaponry etc. is meeting a predefined level.
- etc. etc.

Guess the idea is quite clear. There are lots of levels to it. The fundamental point is for the raid leader to call the level of ambition and set the stage. Anyone signing up will have to absolutely adhere to the rules for that particular raid. Then “casual” have been tweaked in order to secure “friendly” - while still beating content.

To sum up, this approach could help us countering some of the negative experiences we hold on misunderstandings due to different mindsets.

I’ll spare you for more. Thoughts?



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 Post subject: Re: Kin values - and the issues on raiding
PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 10:52 pm 
The Almighty
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The kin is defined as "Semi-casual" in the advertising material, with clear explanation on what this means for our kin.

No need to differentiate between the intention of the raid.

Something that is challenging, run on a higher tier, or endgame - or any combination of such - Is something that needs to be taken a bit more seriously (ie, no leeroy'ing or silliness)

Everything else - Content that is old and trivial, or not particularly challenging (Eg, DN, Watcher, Turtle) is something that can be approaches mush more light-hearted because even if some silliness goes on, it's probably not going to result in disasters, wipes, repairs, and grumpy people. Even if it does, It's not going to be an issue as you aren't costing people cost or wasting their limited raiding time, as this stuff can be cleared very fast anyway.

Bottom line: Reading too much into a non-issue IMHO.



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 Post subject: Re: Kin values - and the issues on raiding
PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 11:45 pm 
Master-At-Arms
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Balthelion wrote:
Bottom line: Reading too much into a non-issue IMHO.


Basically I agree Bal. What made me grab the keyboard was the fact that the recent raid held some of the same challenges as seen in the past. Nevermind the wall of text I produced - may have been too noisy. All I am saying is that the level of ambition is a simple way of reminding people. And it can be done with very few words.

And just to throw the advertisment bit into the mix:

"Our kinship is a defined as a semi-casual and social kinship.

By social, we mean we like just hanging around, talking, socialising and helping people out.

By semi-casual, it means that we do raid, and attempt harder raiding content, although we do not go overboard taking it seriously, or that it is the most important thing to us in the game. We will always try to push ourselves to achieve bigger and better things in raiding, although realistically we will never be at the leading edge of raiding, beating everything on the hardest difficulty on a regular basis."

This is a good description - but I am not convinced that people are in agreement of how to perceive and translate it into a shared mindset when raiding TII endgame, thus avoiding unnecessary grievance. The BG raid Thursday was good example. We may be rusty and skirm-fatiqued which didn't help overall. And we may be more serious the next time. But I see no harm in setting the stage when putting up a raid.

Anyway, a raid leader is ofc free to formulate an invitation anyway he likes - shaping this post to be more of a basis for throwing ideas around in case there are more comments to be made.

Rgds
/Wip



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 Post subject: Re: Kin values - and the issues on raiding
PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 8:02 pm 

Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2011 10:56 pm
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As a general rule it has always been pretty obvious in most posts about 'level's of raid

And one of the nice things about this semi - causal kin was it was always prepared to let you play at your own level...

Nostalgia trips into old raids like DN Rift etc are for fun leeroy and much friviolity

Tier 1 current raids , in the middle depending on how new the content is can be leeroy or a bit serious, we have always said anyone is free to sign up with just a few very vague suggestions on gearing and the reminder to bring some hope scrolls pots to the raid...

After all as we can see from BG, turbine have made it clear tier I is designed for the Casual Raider

Tier 2 - Tier 2 IS A MASSIVE step up from tier 1, this is Designed for hard core raiding kins, if you are not prepared to take it seriously then dont bother coming, if you want fun frolics and facerolls then stick to tier 1 content no one is stopping you from doing so. So why ruin it for those people who want to attempt the harder content in a serious fashion.

People who turn up so intoxicated they cannot play, refuse to trait needed skills or are not prepared to do a something outside of there normal play style can effectivley spell DOOM for the whole raid messing up the night for 12 people. We often run non optimal raid groups and accept that this may lead to a few wipes, as we ALWAYS try and fill up with kinnies if we can. We accept that not every one is always optimal geared, (if you never get chance to do the content how do you ge tthe gear after all?) But I think it is only fair to expect a bit of consideration back to the fellow members of the raid.

But surely this is just a simple extension of core Kin Values, showing respect and consideration for your fellow kinnies :)



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 Post subject: Re: Kin values - and the issues on raiding
PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 8:06 pm 
The Almighty
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Well said OmNom.



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 Post subject: Re: Kin values - and the issues on raiding
PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 8:45 pm 
Lieutenant
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Well I must have missed something the other night in BG after I left.......From reading between the lines it seems it was quite an eventful night lol

Anyway aren't we making a mountain out of a molehill here?

As far as I can see, everyone who turns up to raid regularly has their raiding head on. Ok ofc there are times when folks let their hair down a bit. To be expected as we are not robots. However, that being said I have not been in a raid where folks were just downright not trying. Most of us regular raiders are aware of the capabilities, attitudes and characters of the "Core" raiding folks and can easily tell if folks are not paying attention or slacking a bit. I can probably count on 1 hand when I have come across this.

That being said, due to the faceroll content we have had to endure over the past few months, peeps may have gotten a bit lazy:

Not coming along with pots, Battle scrolls, food, hope tokens etc etc.

Another thing I have noticed is that there are quite a few folks that turned up at the T2 BG with quite naff virtues at low ranks. Would be nice if folks could take the time, if at all possible, to rank the required ones up a bit.

Coming equipped with the food, scrolls and decent virtues would not just help the kin succeed but will also develop your char too.

Anyway like I said at the start, mountain and molehill springs to mind. But like I also said, I missed the eventful night I think this thread stems from.

:roll:


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 Post subject: Re: Kin values - and the issues on raiding
PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 9:13 pm 
Second Marshall
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Will add more some other time but I know the virtues on my RK aren't brilliant ranks, but to be honest there are people I'd trust to raid with me even if their virtues were all 1.

Anyway T1 laughs, some serious bits, T2 game faces, lots more concentration. Whatever the tier, when battle commences remember to keep quiet unless asked, laugh afterwards if necessary.



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 Post subject: Re: Kin values - and the issues on raiding
PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 11:31 am 
Master-At-Arms
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Will make my last entry on this one - as your comments pretty well sums up my point.

Dumnomii wrote:
As a general rule it has always been pretty obvious in most posts about 'level's of raid

Very true. It is usually stated what the level is - I am just not convinced that people are always in sync :)

Dumnomii wrote:
Tier 2 - Tier 2 IS A MASSIVE step up from tier 1, this is Designed for hard core raiding kins, if you are not prepared to take it seriously then dont bother coming, if you want fun frolics and facerolls then stick to tier 1 content no one is stopping you from doing so. So why ruin it for those people who want to attempt the harder content in a serious fashion.

Agree completely. Underlines the need for being eye to eye. I also take this as being part of your point, Omnom, on showing respects and consideration - since a fundamentalt understanding of kinnies' expectations prior to a TII raid is very beneficial for the outcome (may have misunderstood your argument ofc :) ).

Baz wrote:
Anyway aren't we making a mountain out of a molehill here?

Yes and no Baz. My initial post is probably setting a stage for reading too much into it - as Bal has already pointed out. But as you can see in the post in general there are indeed difference in opinions on certain issues. And this is amongst those people raiding on a regular basis. Now count in those who are new to raiding. Greys out the area even further.

We spend quite some time making our builds. Some put a lot of time in calculating numbers, optimizing builds and such in order to perform better in the raids - and are focused on taking on TII content. I believe the Rangers - being semi - are perfectly capable of this challenge. We just need to expand the focus on numbers to also include a little more to the "human side" as that is at least 50% of a succesful TII run.

And oh:

Baz wrote:
But like I also said, I missed the eventful night I think this thread stems from.

I actually didn't think the BG run was too "eventful". My response was based upon the comments made afterwards in the BG post - as it dusted off some of the same issues we saw say a year ago. I just wanted to address this prior to running more TII, including the upcoming raid where we are not familiar with the tactics.

In conclusion, I really do feel this subject is important. And it goes no matter the level of "casual". I accept the fact that the point of view is not shared by all (actually underlining the main point :) ). But it makes me somewhat regret my initial post - as it was a bit over the top and therefore noisy.

But thanks for all the comments so far guys. Being biased on the subject I choose to believe that the post has found a footing :)

Rgds
/Wip



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 Post subject: Re: Kin values - and the issues on raiding
PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 12:01 pm 
Lieutenant
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A couple of things that may be useful on a coaching/training side of things:

1. Folks could always post their ideas about how they like to play their respective classes for raiding in the class specific forums.

and

2. A get together on TS for a good old chin-wag about raiding roles, skills, awareness, positioning etc etc. Basically like a workshop with peeps airing their ideas and experiences about their classes, questions & answers. I have found this really useful in past MMO's. Folks wil take alot away from such sessions. Things some have never thought of or tried before etc. It is also a good way for us all to get to know each others classes a bit more and what each is capable of/brings to the raid.

It's good to talk :)


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 Post subject: Re: Kin values - and the issues on raiding
PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 2:32 pm 
The Almighty
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I'm probably going to do some video overviews of each class at some point in the new year too. Just to give people a flavour of what each classes roles in the group and abilities are. Admitedly, it'll be more a broad overview aimed at newer players thinking of trying a new class, or those who want to get a baasic idea of how hose other classes they've grouped with work. Rather than an In-Depth look at classes. Although I plan to do a written guide for that :D



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