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 Post subject: Re: Kin values - and the issues on raiding
PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 8:58 pm 
Master-At-Arms
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Joined: Sun Feb 20, 2011 12:35 pm
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On the tanking bit:

andrac wrote:
Put an Call on Greatness on d0rf to unlock his block response

This bit cannot be underestimated. Especially in a place like BG where the armoured mobs and Durchie normally gives the guardians very few block responses (due to a high amount of tactical stuff going on iirc).

Really gives a boost.



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 Post subject: Re: Kin values - and the issues on raiding
PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 11:25 pm 
Second Marshall
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RKs can trait an extra aoe heal :)



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 Post subject: Re: Kin values - and the issues on raiding
PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 11:40 pm 
Danger Mouse
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Joined: Fri Feb 04, 2011 10:29 am
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Wiploc wrote:
On the tanking bit:

andrac wrote:
Put an Call on Greatness on d0rf to unlock his block response

This bit cannot be underestimated. Especially in a place like BG where the armoured mobs and Durchie normally gives the guardians very few block responses (due to a high amount of tactical stuff going on iirc).

Really gives a boost.


The call of greatness skill is not know very well by most of the classes. And even it is, many expect that the skill is allways used on tank, wich is not true.

I will remember what the skill does to all the classes:

Burglar: +15% Damage to positional attack skills and Surprise Strike recovers in 5 seconds.

Captain: Gains an Enemy Defeat Response and gains the Battle-readied state every 5 seconds.

Champion: Gains the Seeking Blade effect.

Guardian: +25% Threat generation and gains Guardian´s Ward every 5 seconds.

Hunter: -10% Threat generation, +3 Focus and +2 Focus every 5 seconds.

Lore-master: Reduced Resistance chance for Blinding Flash and Blinding Flash recovers in 5 seconds.

Minstrel: +10% Outgoing Healing and Chord of Salvation recovers 5 seconds faster.

Rune-keeper: -10% Power Costs and Self-Motivation recovers in 5 seconds.

Warden: +10% Threat generation, +5% Damage and gains Shield Up every 5 seconds.


Ok, the skill have 4 min cooldown and is used on one toon, with the set from ettens u can cast it on two (not sure how it works) but ppl dont know that if u have 3 pieces from old OD set u will be able to use it on full fellowship. Now just realise the potential of the skill. Remember, i use him at the start of every major fight on full fellowship. Guard will have more aggro, hunter less aggro and focus, burg more dps, warden more aggro, cappy one enemy defeat response, the LM will be able to use his flash one per 5 sec for 3 times so he can mezz 3 targets in 15 sec. For example Self Motivation of the RK is 2 min cd, or maxed as legacy 1.30 min traited will give you 20% morale and power. After CoG u will be able to use it 3 times in 15 sec, and restore an huge amount of power/morale on you. The amount added to the party is huge and remember that every time when u are in fellowship with me ALL the ppl get the benefit. I laught when in pug one hunter said to me ... hey, why u used the skill on me, i am not important. That is why imo u need to say when u use this skill so the ppl will benefit of it.



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 Post subject: Re: Kin values - and the issues on raiding
PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 12:20 am 
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Wiploc wrote:
meaning that the guard will have to hope for activation of some primary skills in a fairly short window of opportunity in order to overtake the character that grabbed aggro in the first place (who are most likely continuing to go full DPS :) )

This!

If you take aggro, freakking stop hitting the target.
If the mobs is so close to dying it will die on the way, then by all means dps away. If not, press F1 and either run towards the tank or at least have the courtesy to move away from the group. Only thing that will happen otherwise is the guard will have used all his skills, and are on CD for the next mob, in a futile effort to take aggro back or the mob will do a big aoe attack that will put more strain on the healers. Who in turn build more aggro.

Leveling a LM really helps in seeing these things. Especially when going in blue and using the pet as tank. The aggro window is front and center and something you always look at so you know when and how much you can hit the mob.

And yes Wip. Durchest and his similar looking friends in BG don't give much block responses. So being a reactive tank isn't always easy. Tactical damage as a whole don't give much blocks.



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 Post subject: Re: Kin values - and the issues on raiding
PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 11:04 am 
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DPS classes should always have the "show target's target" window on. I've put it just underneath the RAT window.
It tells you INSTANTLY when you have aggro so that you can take steps to get aggro back to the tank - which typically should include stopping hitting the mob, running back to the tank and using any aggro dump skills you have (e.g. Beneath Notice, HIPS).

Ofc it is occasionally fun when the tank gets 1-shotted to run around kiting like a mad chicken and shouting "ohshitohshitohshit" till they get rezzed (happened to me, Netty and B yesterday) but this is not generally advisable.

One hunter tip which may or may not have been covered -in most instances and raids, do not stand at full 40m range from the mob. It makes tanks' and healers' job much harder if you do. Many minnie skills have a 20m range, guards need to be fighting a mob to aggro it, and I believe Netty mentioned many wardens' aggro skills top out at 25m - so stand at 15-20m away from the tank.



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 Post subject: Re: Kin values - and the issues on raiding
PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 12:42 pm 

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Its mentioned a couple of times, but cannot be over emphasied with a hunter the temptation is to stand well back as then you can SEE the fight and what is going on, epsecially when your rat it is easy to select next target etc. I understand this and why hunters can often be a good raid lead class, tanks have a Diabolical view of whats going on normally. (which is why you shouldnt rely on tanks fixing other peoples problems as in multi mob pulls the tank is often the LAST to know what is going on)

BUT if the situation calls for grouping up for distributed damage GROUP up... (recent pet hate)

Certain mobs it is better for hunter to stand in melee range (corruption removal, interupts, speed focus gain) maybe doesnt fit 'optimal dps' rotations but hunter IS a flexible class if you allow it to be. Also as pointed out healers cannot heal you if your out of range , and again healers are busy watching your health bars, there positional awareness is lower than most other classes as there job gives them a different focus, screaming heal me is pointless they probally have already wasted valuable time trying to heal you but your where out of range or LOS. Also while talking about other skills rember you have posion removal for a reason, not all poisons should be a hunters job, but attack speed debuffs on the guard, poisons that silence the mini effectivly render them useless. Cant remember the exact range on posion removal but I am sure it is less than max range on bow!

If you get aggro , consider how close target is to death and if it is trash or not, a single trash mob in many dungeons should not be any threat to hunter. Pop out your parry increase, let it ping away as you burn it down or dazing blow it and blast it.

If the aggro mangement is important (stay within aoe leech and threat range of the tank) else they have no way of getting it back without chasing around, and a tank should NEVER in an ideal world have to chase mobs, how can they keep aoe frontal cleaves away from the party if they are running around!!!!!!!!

If you get aggro, kiting should be a LAST ( very occasionally it is necessary ) resort, running around screaming gets no where. Melee DPS can not be effective playing benny hill, a guardian has problems hitting to take aggro back if they are playing benny hill , aggro generation on other mobs chasing the chain is decreased making it more likely healers will get aggro it tends to go pear shaped very quick.

Aggro dump run through the tank melee group, when mob is in place hit dazing blow if you have it up to sit it in place get out the other side and swap targets or go low threat stance for a while. At least this way as well if you die the mob is in a good place to aggro straight back onto the tanks who should still be high up the threat list.



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 Post subject: Re: Kin values - and the issues on raiding
PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 1:38 pm 
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I like this discussion.
Somethings I already know and work as reminders. Other things, especially for classes I myself isn't playing, it gives me a great insight on the special tricks they have.
Hopefully others see it the same way and not as complaining.



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 Post subject: Re: Kin values - and the issues on raiding
PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 3:40 pm 
Captain General
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What omnom said. Kiting hunters are the bane of my existence. Can't get near them to get aggro back, healers often can't heal them because of LoS issues (especially true in durchest), and other mobs either get lost or run through the group AoEing while I chase the hunter. Stay where you are, pop your survival skills, trust in your healers, and know that staying still means the mob will be back hitting the tank all the quicker. If you die then he'll definitely be back on the tank, and you'll most likely get a rez (kiting usually ends in dying anyway).

Unless you're doing Lt. Then just disregard everything I just said.



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 Post subject: Re: Kin values - and the issues on raiding
PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 7:51 pm 
Hard Boiled
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Grim wrote:
What omnom said. Kiting hunters are the bane of my existence. Can't get near them to get aggro back, healers often can't heal them because of LoS issues (especially true in durchest), and other mobs either get lost or run through the group AoEing while I chase the hunter. Stay where you are, pop your survival skills, trust in your healers, and know that staying still means the mob will be back hitting the tank all the quicker. If you die then he'll definitely be back on the tank, and you'll most likely get a rez (kiting usually ends in dying anyway).

Unless you're doing Lt. Then just disregard everything I just said.

What? The big nasty beast is just after hugs and kisses....


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