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 Post subject: Freedom of choice ... or not?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 12:54 am 
Danger Mouse
Danger Mouse

Joined: Fri Feb 04, 2011 10:29 am
Posts: 1484
Location: Neamt, Romania
good evening all

i want to add a few things to our discution had in kin chat last night. I am sure that we all can learn from all the thing said and i would like to make some conclusions about it. I respect all your opinions and i really hope that no one was upset or anything else, discutions make us stronger and all the ppl are diferent so there cannot be 2 same opinions ever.


The facts ...
Some time ago, ppl said in forums that they apreciate this kin for the fact that we have flexibility and they are allowed to try diferent things. I would love to keep that further. We did OD t2 with no problems at all, and indeed we had unluck with Ortanc T2.

The truth ...
Maybe we are missing something. Maybe indeed we need to make some changes in our traits/virtues, but i would like that happens by free will and experimenting each one and not forced. Only trying we can reach some conclusions and change our way/style to play, i will not trait that because some ppl tell me, i will do it if i think that it suits for me and working for my style. Indeed lately latest content of Lotro is harder and harder and accept no mistakes from players. That is why the kins hardcore make perfect groups and assure that they are tunned perfect, so that the chances of succes to be greater.

The motives ...
But sometimes u need to work with what u because not everybody is perfectly geared and having all the stuff maxed. Not all the ppl have the time to grind endlessly. That is the diference between an raid and casual kin. And we had to make an compromise.

Us ...
I am not saying that because we are casual, we will not do that. No, i dont. And yes, maybe we have smaller chances than others. But we are very skilled and versatile and that give us some extra credits. I sustain that the players skills/experience beat gear and other stuff like virtues/traits.

Conclusions.
express your selfs as free will and be free in your choices. accept or dont advices and play your class how u want it, is not such thing as perfect aproach, there can be so many variation in your class, learn them all, act as acordingly. I like the freedom of choice in our kin and i will not impose to anyone who join us to do anything because i told him to do so.

I think that player is over gear all the time.

later edit. unfortunelly i posted too late, Ker left our kin. I am sorry for this and i hope u will return to us mate when u will realise that we did nothing wrong, we only tryed to protect our free choice.



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 Post subject: Re: Freedom of choice ... or not?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 8:46 am 

Joined: Wed Dec 29, 2010 5:06 pm
Posts: 256
Location: Italy
I don't know what the discussion you had last night was about, but I can imagine the topic from what you wrote Andy.
I do believe that discussions are of paramount importance, because they are the only way to understand one another and to do something useful for the kin; this of course means that all the people engaged in the discussion should be willing to accept the other people's opinions. But this does not always happen.
As you all know, I'm not a "hardcore gamer", for various reasons. The thing I like in our kin is that the hardcore players are particularly "open minded", that is they don't judge badly players who are not so experienced as them, or who may not be always "completely tuned", because maybe they're trying to relax and may make some mistakes.

So coming back to the discussion you had, maybe it was about yesterday's failure in ToO: well we failed, some people made some mistakes (including me), some were not as experienced as the others, but this is part of the game. Everyone of us has been in an instance for the first time without knowing exactly what to do, and after receiving instructions from the leader, maybe some tries are needed before getting to the result. What we all need is patience and supportive behaviour. Most of us have these characteristics, all our officers have them, maybe not all the kinnies...

As far as accepting advice is concerned, that's obviously a personal choice, nevertheless if I'm getting a piece of advice from a player who I know is much more experienced than I am, I willingly accept it, as this will improve my character. What I should do is ask for some explanations, in order to understand why this player suggested me to change traits/gear, so as to be able to "walk on my legs" in the future. But this also happens in real life, so every sensible person should understand it on his/her own...

Panth



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 Post subject: Re: Freedom of choice ... or not?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 8:48 am 
Lieutenant
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Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2011 4:08 pm
Posts: 532
Unfortunately I wasn't present for this chat within the KIn last night. I would just like to add one thing........

We have wonderful a mix of peeps in the Kin, with a broad range of abilities, playstyles and attitudes.......

Free speech and freedom of choice is paramount imo.

It would be a very boring World if we were all the same

So let's roll on as we are, cos I, for one love it :)


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 Post subject: Re: Freedom of choice ... or not?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 9:30 am 
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Joined: Sun Dec 19, 2010 3:46 am
Posts: 1391
Location: Malmo, Skane (the country)
Got no clue what you are/where talking about.

But if it's about people having same gear, virtues, etc.. Then yes many are. That's just how the game is. Not much room for individuality.

Happily that will change in some respect with the new expansion. And that I'm eagerly waiting for. Individuality rules!!



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 Post subject: Re: Freedom of choice ... or not?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 12:11 pm 
Footman
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Joined: Sat Apr 09, 2011 6:33 pm
Posts: 19
I would first like to start by appologising for certain comments and i have spoken to some people directly to express my regrets.

Everyone has the freedom to choose how they play, no one can or should take that away from them, however with T2 ToO being so unforgiving and (some say too) difficult it is my belief that advice on the best equipment and traits should be available. The reason that people trait a certain way is to make life as easy as possible during fights so you only have to worry about doing your basic job and following instructions and not worry about why you're taking soo much damage cos you havent traited to reduce tactical damage (for example).

If you choose to not use the advice then that is up to you and that is where the difference between a raid kin and a casual kin comes in, a raid kin will INSIST on certain traits, a casual kin wont.


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 Post subject: Re: Freedom of choice ... or not?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 12:36 pm 
Guardsman
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Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2012 6:34 pm
Posts: 50
I am in for freedom of choice. I understand ppl that want to play their classes all different ways and such, but as a burger, I know only qk, cause I tried the others in the beginning and didnt like them. Dont know them, dont wanna waste any time to get to know them, cause that playstyle will never be mine for example. I have one of each class simply because I want to understand what all classes can and cant do, so I know what to expect in a raid from everyone. I expect chimps to release stunned objects, I expect minstrels do die from slugs/trolls cause they are not positioned very good, or mobile. I expect wardens to fight for aggro, so I hold off a bit at start until they say go. I expect a rat hunter to chose wrong target and pull by mistake. I expect a hobbit to eat.

All of this is hilarious to me. I was in a raiding kin, I was in a casual one. To be able to mix the two up is exactly what I see in this kin.
Everyone is different. There are so many traits and builds too use nowadays, that the freedom of choice is actually more up to the player.
I have trust in that every player know their class by lvl 75 and know how to play it to suit their needs and style.
Advice is always appreciated, though it should never be forced.



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 Post subject: Re: Freedom of choice ... or not?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 2:37 pm 
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:)

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 Post subject: Re: Freedom of choice ... or not?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 3:33 pm 
The Almighty
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Disclaimer: I wasn't involved in the conversation last night, although i am aware of it, and anything said here is not intended as a subtle insult or anything or the kind to any of the participants.

Amiarah wrote:
Advice is always appreciated, though it should never be forced.


^ This.

Our kin philosophy has always been one of helpfulness. Those of us who are more experienced are happy to share our experience and knowledge with others, in order to improve the kin as a whole. But this is ADVICE not ORDERS.

"It would be helpful in this instance if you traited X/Y/Z because ..."

It's a suggestion, it is explained with reasoning, and it's not an order. This is how we like doing things. It's not:

"I'm not inviting you because you don't have X legacy which i think is crap, you're using Y virtue which i hate, and i don't like your gear"

Which is rude, not explained, based on personal opinions not facts, and doesn't encourage experimentation with builds as this encourages everyone of the same class to be built identical.

At the end of the day, 99% of players in raiding are going to trait the way they are because that is what THEY THEMSELVES believe gives them on their class/playstyle the best chance of success. One burglar might want a riddle range legacy to help with stunning, another might not see the need because they are confident without it. Is either one of them wrong? No. If you force one to adapt to the other's playstyle, they will not be able to play to their potential because they are having to do things completely differently to how they are use to. This makes the end result worse than just leaving them alone.

Yes, sometimes players can be a little misguided in what they beleive is good for them and why. We do have players in the kinship who are (or have been) dedicated soloers, and therefore know little about their roles in groups. We don't mock them, or try to make them be a photocopy of our own characters, but instead help them better understand their class and role within a group, and give them the tools so they can make their own informed decisions.

I know for a fact that if max virtues were "required" for participating in Orthanc T2, then all but one of my Army would be disqualified on this stupid requirement already. Only Brya would be left. Now, if you added the requirement of also having what the leader considers best virtues (read: all tac mit virtues for ToO), then she would be disqualified too. I don't need them. My build has more than enough Tactical Mit and health built into it to make her extremely survible. Hell, she even tanks stuff in groups and relishes it. So does this mean that my build is wrong? Hell no, it's extremely powerful for my playstyle and allows me to do my job to the best of my ability. I know what my role in a group is, i know what i'm expected to do. So having someone tell me "You must do/have/trait X" is, frankly, offensive to me. I know how to play my class. I know how best to use my skills in event of emergency to save the day without having for the leader to decide what to do and tell me (note: Often they do not have a clue anyway)

I'm all for taking anyone and everyone to things i organise. OK, something like Orthanc does require a bit of a higher standard. But i won't say "max virtues. full draigoch. full skraid jewellery" etc. I'll just say get them fairly high, get at least 4 draigoch OR SIMILAR bit, as this is pretty easy, and some crafted jewellery which kinnies are happy to make for you anyway. You can often be pleasantly surprised that the player performs really well despite not having "the best" gear.

In some cases, ok they might not be great. That doesn't mean we are rude to them, or decide we'll never bring them to our raids again. If they made mistakes, help the player to understand what they were and what they could do better next time. Don't be rude about it, just help them out so they can improve as a player, because this makes us stronger as a kinship - both in terms of the available player pool and our fun and friendly atmosphere which is the main reason why so many people join us - and stay.

Peace and kittens.
~Bal



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 Post subject: Re: Freedom of choice ... or not?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 3:47 pm 
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Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2011 2:59 pm
Posts: 1092
Location: Sweden
I am very much in favour of personal rights, freedoms and liberties - not only in game, but in all aspects of life! Freedom of choice - free to make your own decisions, free to make mistakes in life, free to choose how you want to live - is the only freedom anybody really has, and rights such as these are very dear to me in general, and I have always and will always refuse to accept any infringement on such fundamental principles. When I see anyone fare ill in such a way, it always makes me very sad and often even angry on their behalf.

I really love this kin and playing with all of you. I really do. That is in very large part due to the openness, fairness and mutual respect of the kinship itself, and the many great people in it. This kin accepts anyone, at any time - regardless of level, class, race, age, gender, handicaps, sexual orientation, religious beliefs, breakfast prefences and even degree of cynical outlook on life! I love that warm, friendly and caring feeling present in this kin. This open principle leads to great diversity - and we really are a motley crew! :D I consider myself very fortunate that I've had the opportunity to get to know some truly wonderful people here (even though some of you buggers are even crazier than I am! ;) ). We always have great fun, all of us, together. :D

And that is really what it's all about: having fun! Because, at the end of the day, this is (after all) just a game. A game we all play to have fun. And I'm confident that I'm speaking for everybody when I say that we all joined this kin to have fun with others as well. :)
We have always been, and will always be, a casual kin, because of that; we play to have fun together and not take things too seriously. Sure, we all want to be challenged as well - to grow both as players and as individuals - whilst sharing the joy. But if we start to impose some form of standards, or conformity, that people have to build a certain way, or play a certain way, then we would either: be discriminating people for "not meeting our standards", and shun/ignore them in favour of a closed-knit core group who does qualify; or take away their freedom of choice by insisting that everyone meet those standards - that they 'must' use specific traits/gear/whatever by being told to do so rather than discovering their own style of comfort. In both cases, that is where the game stops being "fun" (at least, imho); it stops being a 'game' you enjoy for recreation/relaxation, and becomes a 'job' you have to do despite that you don't really want to. And at that point we would be going against the fundamental principles on which this kinship is built. :(

It has been mentioned several times that we should 'help' people progress and get better (I refuse to use the word 'best'!!). Yes, I agree, and I think we all agree that is a good thing. But it is the manner in which this 'helping' is done that worries me greatly, and is where many oppinions differ. Because 'helping' has historically often been misused by people to forcibly sway others to share their own thoughts and oppinions. This is where we all have to draw the line, and be careful how we go about it.
There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that help will always be given in this kin, to those who ask for it. From everyone. If asked for my oppinion by another, I will gladly give it, and I try very hard to make it clear that it IS - in fact - my own thoughts and oppinions on the advice being given! (If anyone has ever felt that this was not the case from me, I wish to apologise outright for my intention not being clear on that point.)
On any advice I give it is completely up to the recipient whether they want to use it or discard it - I will not judge them either way.

I really WANT people to try different ideas and draw their own conclusions from the results. Just as I want to be allowed the same liberty myself. Therefore, I will quite happily wipe hundreds of times in ToO or whatever (even on T2!!!), if it means even a single person is learning something new; about themselves, about their class, what is/isn't working, new virtues/traits/gear etc. that they find work better for their playstyle, or whatever other 'gain' they might get from it. Why? Because I know that THAT person will be much, much stronger later - and be a far better benefit for the group and the kin as a whole - having made the discovery on their own, than will a person having been given the 'answer' on a piece of paper, as it were, from someone else. :)
This is actually a well-known pedagogical fact, and not some theoretical/theological/metaphysical jibberish. ;)

To summarise:
I would like the kinship to stay true to its core values of openness, friendship and casual fun. To not take things too seriously, be ever open to new ideas and approaches, novelties and innovative alternatives. The more people straying from 'the norm', the better off we'll all be, imho! :D If it's crazy, so what? It's all good fun in the end! We must allow individuals to grow on their own - in their own way, and in their own time - and not hand-hold them to guide them down the 'right path' and/or shield them from making their own mistakes. =)
Let's keep the fun going, together...

(Oh, and my apologies that this post became a little long. These are subjects very dear to me in life and I'm quite passionate about them. So when there is a debate covering it, I simply cannot keep quiet. Sorry.)

(Edit for disclaimer: I wrote all this without knowing about Bal's post just preceding it, so additional apologies for any repetetiveness. :P )



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 Post subject: Re: Freedom of choice ... or not?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 3:53 pm 
Lieutenant
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Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2011 4:08 pm
Posts: 532
Arc wrote:
I am very much in favour of personal rights, freedoms and liberties - not only in game, but in all aspects of life! Freedom of choice - free to make your own decisions, free to make mistakes in life, free to choose how you want to live - is the only freedom anybody really has, and rights such as these are very dear to me in general, and I have always and will always refuse to accept any infringement on such fundamental principles. When I see anyone fare ill in such a way, it always makes me very sad and often even angry on their behalf.

I really love this kin and playing with all of you. I really do. That is in very large part due to the openness, fairness and mutual respect of the kinship itself, and the many great people in it. This kin accepts anyone, at any time - regardless of level, class, race, age, gender, handicaps, sexual orientation, religious beliefs, breakfast prefences and even degree of cynical outlook on life! I love that warm, friendly and caring feeling present in this kin. This open principle leads to great diversity - and we really are a motley crew! :D I consider myself very fortunate that I've had the opportunity to get to know some truly wonderful people here (even though some of you buggers are even crazier than I am! ;) ). We always have great fun, all of us, together. :D

And that is really what it's all about: having fun! Because, at the end of the day, this is (after all) just a game. A game we all play to have fun. And I'm confident that I'm speaking for everybody when I say that we all joined this kin to have fun with others as well. :)
We have always been, and will always be, a casual kin, because of that; we play to have fun together and not take things too seriously. Sure, we all want to be challenged as well - to grow both as players and as individuals - whilst sharing the joy. But if we start to impose some form of standards, or conformity, that people have to build a certain way, or play a certain way, then we would either: be discriminating people for "not meeting our standards", and shun/ignore them in favour of a closed-knit core group who does qualify; or take away their freedom of choice by insisting that everyone meet those standards - that they 'must' use specific traits/gear/whatever by being told to do so rather than discovering their own style of comfort. In both cases, that is where the game stops being "fun" (at least, imho); it stops being a 'game' you enjoy for recreation/relaxation, and becomes a 'job' you have to do despite that you don't really want to. And at that point we would be going against the fundamental principles on which this kinship is built. :(

It has been mentioned several times that we should 'help' people progress and get better (I refuse to use the word 'best'!!). Yes, I agree, and I think we all agree that is a good thing. But it is the manner in which this 'helping' is done that worries me greatly, and is where many oppinions differ. Because 'helping' has historically often been misused by people to forcibly sway others to share their own thoughts and oppinions. This is where we all have to draw the line, and be careful how we go about it.
There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that help will always be given in this kin, to those who ask for it. From everyone. If asked for my oppinion by another, I will gladly give it, and I try very hard to make it clear that it IS - in fact - my own thoughts and oppinions on the advice being given! (If anyone has ever felt that this was not the case from me, I wish to apologise outright for my intention not being clear on that point.)
On any advice I give it is completely up to the recipient whether they want to use it or discard it - I will not judge them either way.

I really WANT people to try different ideas and draw their own conclusions from the results. Just as I want to be allowed the same liberty myself. Therefore, I will quite happily wipe hundreds of times in ToO or whatever (even on T2!!!), if it means even a single person is learning something new; about themselves, about their class, what is/isn't working, new virtues/traits/gear etc. that they find work better for their playstyle, or whatever other 'gain' they might get from it. Why? Because I know that THAT person will be much, much stronger later - and be a far better benefit for the group and the kin as a whole - having made the discovery on their own, than will a person having been given the 'answer' on a piece of paper, as it were, from someone else. :)
This is actually a well-known pedagogical fact, and not some theoretical/theological/metaphysical jibberish. ;)

To summarise:
I would like the kinship to stay true to its core values of openness, friendship and casual fun. To not take things too seriously, be ever open to new ideas and approaches, novelties and innovative alternatives. The more people straying from 'the norm', the better off we'll all be, imho! :D If it's crazy, so what? It's all good fun in the end! We must allow individuals to grow on their own - in their own way, and in their own time - and not hand-hold them to guide them down the 'right path' and/or shield them from making their own mistakes. =)
Let's keep the fun going, together...

(Oh, and my apologies that this post became a little long. These are subjects very dear to me in life and I'm quite passionate about them. So when there is a debate covering it, I simply cannot keep quiet. Sorry.)

(Edit for disclaimer: I wrote all this without knowing about Bal's post just preceding it, so additional apologies for any repetetiveness. :P )


Love this :D


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