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 Post subject: Re: Freedom of choice ... or not?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 4:33 pm 
Footman
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Amazing post Arc, you hit the nail on the head, bravo to you sir, I hope everyone takes a minute to read what you have said. There aren't enough superlatives to do justice to your words :)


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 Post subject: Re: Freedom of choice ... or not?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 4:47 pm 
Second Marshall
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Might I suggest that people, who feel up to it, post their builds (traits/virtues) for running different raids/FS/skirms as well as what sort of rotations they use in different circumstances. This may potentially help those of us (I'm talking about me and my RK) with how I might play better/more efficiently. Don't use it as a debate (i.e. I wouldn't use that if I were you), use it constructively and for learning. I know I've used build guides like this for WoW and Guild Wars, then adapted them for my style of play. Explanation of why you've decided certain things may help people understand.

I certainly don't like being told what I should and shouldn't trait and virtue, but constructive debate is always welcome (as long as it's light hearted!).



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 Post subject: Re: Freedom of choice ... or not?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 7:46 pm 
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Ok, I'll bite Catti.

I don't like retraiting much 'cos I'm a tight-arsed fecker who hates spending money. I also want the builds that give the most all-round utility. So here are my builds for the toons I run Orthanc with (hunter, burg, minnie, champ, and on t2 only the first two):

AEDFRITH (Hunter, main)
Purpose as I see it: Consistent sustained DPS, big crits, and NOT DYING. Decent AOE.
Virtues: Zeal, Determination, Fidelity, Innocence, Tolerance; I recently dropped Valour in favour of Determination as I've generally managed not to die and +42 agi/98 morale > 300 morale. Could have gone Loyalty too.
Traits: 5b/2r: Strong Draw, Deadly Precision, Arrow Storm, Deep Concentration (+700 power with leg), Resolute Aim, Hail of Arrows, Critical Eye.
VERY occasionally in the moors I will go 5b/2y (Strong Intimidation and Combat Traps).
Summary: Efficiency. Hail of Arrows + Arrow Storm with high crit becomes a spammable rain of death critting on 8 targets for 2.7k per target.
Legendaries: Bard's Arrow, Improved Fleetness, Press Onward. 5 Faron (ToO set) and Improved Fleetness allows a hunter to do things hunters aren't supposed to be able to - i.e. do DPS *on the run*.

RUMBOLD (Burglar, other main)
Purpose as I see it: Massive debuffs, CC, decent single-target DPS NOT DYING.
Virtues: Zeal, Compassion, Fidelity, Innocence, Loyalty. Quite a tanky set, but Rumbi spends more time up close than Aed and needs to optimise resistances and mits.
Traits: 5b/2y: Cruel Odds, Honed Wit, Leaf Walker (for lovely Provoke mezz of win), Side Step, Swift and Subtle, Perplexing Riddle, Appraising Eye
Summary: Max debuffs and survivability.
Legendaries: Exposed Throat (for Draigoch; swap to Flashing Blades for Orthanc), Stick and Move, Dealings Done
LI note: Rumbi has two sets - a 2A dagger and 1A bag optimised for QK and a 1A dagger and 2A bag optimised for Gambler.

MORRIARTY (Champ)
Purpose as I see it: DPS and emergency chank (carries vit and +inc heal gear for when tank needed). NOT DYING.
Virtues (NOT finished): Fidelity, Zeal, Charity, Loyalty, Innocence; working on Discipline and Honour
Traits: 4r/2y/1b: Controlled Fury, Deep Strikes, Deadly Strikes, Flurry of Blows; Improved Rend, Stalwart Blade; Time of Need (so I get a 4k self-heal every 5 mins)
Summary: more single-target than AOE, use a rotation with a lot of Remorseless in it. Untraited the Swift Blade one to reduce the risk of breaking CC.
Legendaries: Ferocious Strikes (might swap for CBR), Raging Blade FOR TEH SHINGZ, Controlled Burn.

HROLFDAN (Minstrel, burpyd0rf)
Purpose as I see it: Um, healing. And burping.
Virtues (NOT finished): Fidelity, Zeal, Honour, Compassion, Innocence
Traits: 4b/3y: Glorious Anthem, Flow of Harmony, Absolute Pitch, Graceful Demeanour, Silver Tongue, Focused Performance, Life Singer
Summary: concentration on increasing heal magnitude and anthem duration, and reducing power costs and inductions.
Legendaries: Cry of the Wizards (could swap this out as a pure healer), Fellowship's Heart, Rally



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Aedfrith - Yarrr! | Aldnoth - Respect mah authoritah!| Hrolfdan - Buurrp! | Rumbold - BAPPLE! | Morriarty - Yak-a-boo! | Hraldan - DORF! | Aldfryd - KYAI PAN TUO KYAI! | Aednoth - BOOM! | Rumbelina - :3 | Mishhar - Grroar!
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 Post subject: Re: Freedom of choice ... or not?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 8:26 pm 
Second Marshall
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Cheers Aed, may I suggest they go on each class's own board?



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 Post subject: Re: Freedom of choice ... or not?
PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 2:20 am 
RIVEN!!!
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Aedfrith wrote:
MORRIARTY (Champ)
Untraited the Blade-wall one to reduce the risk of breaking CC.


Would just like to point out Blade-wall is always 3 target frontal AoE, regardles if its traited or not. The trait Stalwart Blade gives +1 Fervour whenever blade-wall successfully hits a target, as such its generally considered essential on a champion

You may have been thinking of the trait 'Swift to Anger' which turns Swift Strike (a single target, fast acting, single handed attack), into Swift Blade, a 3 target AoE (very similar to blade-wall, except only one strike at a much higher power cost, opposed to blade-wall's economic dual strike). The trait also generates additional fervour upon swift blade crits, and has several other advantages when you're in Ardour such as permanent Red Haze in Ardour, and additional Fervour upon killing a target

Aedfrith wrote:
HROLFDAN (Minstrel, burpyd0rf)
Purpose as I see it: Um, healing. And burping.
Virtues (NOT finished): Fidelity, Zeal, Honour, Compassion, Innocence
Traits: 4b/3y: Glorious Anthem, Flow of Harmony, Absolute Pitch, Graceful Demeanour, Silver Tongue, Focused Performance, Life Singer
Summary: concentration on increasing heal magnitude and anthem duration, and reducing power costs and inductions.
Legendaries: Cry of the Wizards (could swap this out as a pure healer), Fellowship's Heart, Rally


Out of curiousity, why are we bothering to attempt to increase anthem duration if we're just healing? Conversely if we are also buffing shouldn't we want to run 4y/3b for addtional anthem duration (idealy enabling us to keep up 4 at a time, reducing the overall healing load)?


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 Post subject: Re: Freedom of choice ... or not?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 6:55 pm 
Hard Boiled
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Ok, my two cents worth:

I can understand everyone's desire to play the way they think they should play and trait/gear the way they think they should. But, let's be honest with ourselves here folks: the T2 HM raids are not going to allow us to play in that sort of care-bear manner. T2 is difficult and everyone should expect that in a T2 raid you may/will be asked to slot certain virtues/gear/traits. It's just the nature of the beast now. T2 is diverging so much in difficulty level from T1 that the mentality of 'I'm gonna trait/gear/play how I want' is going to drag the whole group down.

Take Ivar T2 HM prior to RoI's release. Raids could not go in there and expect to survive that fight without the highest level of Shadow Mitigation possible. Hell, it even got to the point that some of us were breaking out the older Loth Purple sets or the Rift armour sets just for the extra Shadow Mit. That was a casual kin I was in running that one, and yes, we insisted and agreed as a whole that we would 'sacrifice' our playstyle/gear/traits to succeed on that fight. From the first time we walked in there with people trying to 'play with their comfort zone' to the change in the fight once everyone was traited/geared correctly was night/day.

So yes, for T1, I'm all for personal choice. But for T2, I expect everyone, including myself, not to waste 11 other members' time by being stubborn and refusing to accept the fact that there are other people who may/have done that particular raid before and know what to expect and how best to deal with it. Yes, we all want to have fun, but the sheer fact you're running a raid on T2 means you should expect to consent to do/trait/gear however the raid leader asks you. You may not see the need for it, he/she does and shouldn't need to 'convince' you to do things his/her way.

Now, that may sound harsh, and not everyone will agree it, but, from personal experience in a casual kin running T2 HMs, the standards and requirements for success get higher. I don't think anyone decides they want to raid merely to see how many times they can wipe: I think we all go in with the goal of successfully completing it. As such, because of the level of difficulty in T2 raids, if even one person doesn't 'pull their own weight,' then things just became that much harder on the group as a whole.


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 Post subject: Re: Freedom of choice ... or not?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 7:09 pm 
Guardsman
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Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2012 6:34 pm
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Quote:
I can understand everyone's desire to play the way they think they should play and trait/gear the way they think they should. But, let's be honest with ourselves here folks: the T2 HM raids are not going to allow us to play in that sort of care-bear manner. T2 is difficult and everyone should expect that in a T2 raid you may/will be asked to slot certain virtues/gear/traits. It's just the nature of the beast now. T2 is diverging so much in difficulty level from T1 that the mentality of 'I'm gonna trait/gear/play how I want' is going to drag the whole group down.


There is some truth in that. However I fail to see exactly where a persons trait or gear matters more than skill and knowing what to do and when. Learning takes wiping. Over and over and over again. I wont say the traiting is useless, but I doubt it is the main reason for wipes tbh.

My old kin on withy were trying out OD balrog over and over and over again on T2, tactics were of ut-most importance.
Ive had a few tries on t2. The ones dying were the ones that didnt pay attention to the tactics much.

Ill trait more tact mit going t2 ToO, but I wont see that as a major guarantee of success, not even a minor one. Mearly a chance of not utterly failing.



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 Post subject: Re: Freedom of choice ... or not?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 7:48 pm 
Hard Boiled
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Amiarah wrote:
Quote:
I can understand everyone's desire to play the way they think they should play and trait/gear the way they think they should. But, let's be honest with ourselves here folks: the T2 HM raids are not going to allow us to play in that sort of care-bear manner. T2 is difficult and everyone should expect that in a T2 raid you may/will be asked to slot certain virtues/gear/traits. It's just the nature of the beast now. T2 is diverging so much in difficulty level from T1 that the mentality of 'I'm gonna trait/gear/play how I want' is going to drag the whole group down.


There is some truth in that. However I fail to see exactly where a persons trait or gear matters more than skill and knowing what to do and when. Learning takes wiping. Over and over and over again. I wont say the traiting is useless, but I doubt it is the main reason for wipes tbh.

My old kin on withy were trying out OD balrog over and over and over again on T2, tactics were of ut-most importance.
Ive had a few tries on t2. The ones dying were the ones that didnt pay attention to the tactics much.

Ill trait more tact mit going t2 ToO, but I wont see that as a major guarantee of success, not even a minor one. Mearly a chance of not utterly failing.


And that may be where a major misconception comes into play: all these items are not going to be a single major factor. They are a grouping of minor factors that when added together have a major impact.

For example: let's say you have a Warden that is trying to tank Flagit in DN. Said Warden uses a spear instead of a sword, mace, or some other not bleed proc'ing weapon. The group's chances for success drop dramatically as a result.

Going back to Ivar T2 HM in OD, when we went in without the necessary shadow mit, we got face-rolled right at the transition between phases in which he'd toss out 3 shadow wave attacks in a row... After that, all 12 of us could survive that transition.

I'll even go way back to the early days of Moria when we would hunter tank the squid and said hunter needed about 15% evade to survive....

No one single item will make/break your success and even having the best gear/traits/virtues won't help if your tactics are wrong. But, if you're using the right tactics, then every little edge you can give yourself or your group has a compounding effect such that by the time you've sinished optimizing, your effectiveness/survivability have increased more than any single little item by itself would contribute.


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