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 Post subject: Grouping - knowing your class - behaviour
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 3:32 pm 
Danger Mouse
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Like boss usually say, EPIC WALL OF TEXT. Patience required ...

We did had one discusion on kin chat last night about leveling and joining groups before reaching cap level and about grouping with ppl who dont know the tactics (idiots i think was the word used by someone - idiots who dont know their class).
I dont want to write a raid guid since we have an excelent one did by Wip. In this wall of text i just want to show other aspects of playing in a group.

The majority of the words who are comming in my mind at the moment are:
Courtesy, Honesty, Punctuality, Preparedness, Obedience, Lead by example, Teach with patience, Repeat with grace, Encourage the weak, Welcome the new, Mitigate the drama, Follow the rules, Enforce the requirements.

There is an intrinsic conflict of interest between casual players and serious players which stems from the reasons why we play. Most people play for fun. If it wasn't fun at least some of the time we wouldn't be playing, however, there are varied opinions on what constitutes fun. Some people are willing to put up with more undesirable activities than others in order to achieve their goals. Some don't like to solo, others don't like to group.
Good gear, traits, and playing skill make a huge difference in the ability to succeed with difficult game content. Coming unprepared to an end game instance is a crippling liability for fellow players. Casual players often take offense when given advice or criticism of their gear, traits, or techniques, and refuse to take action, yet they see the rewards serious players earn and desire these rewards without doing the necessary work.
There are plenty of mediocre kins for casual players. In order to be a productive member of an end game instance raiding kin, players must be motivated to learn and fully develop their characters. Getting good gear requires a lot of work. Every day, players languish trying to get groups capable of completing end game instances, yet many of these players have not adequately geared, traited, and trained themselves first. They just want gear handed to them. Even if this were done, and often it is, these players will not be fit for end game instances, because they do not improve their skill commensurately with their gear and traits.
I would like to point to some virtues who everyone should have, or should aim ...

Be courteous and honest with other players. Expletives, graphic sexuality, bigotry, racism, personal attacks, and fraud are inappropriate. Be on time. We all have real lives outside of the game and have better things to do than wait for tardy players. Be prepared. Bathe, eat, drink, bio, repair, sell, and resupply before the raid begins. Listen to and obey the leader. Don't go AFK during combat without permission.

Learn every aspect of the user interface, command line, and options configuration. This may require reading a player guide, traversing all of the menus, and reading command line help.

Know all of your class skills by name and function. Know all of the common fellowship maneuvers by name and function, how to interrupt your current skill to participate quickly, and how to change your color selection.

Know your class. This part cannot be overstated. In a three-man or six-man instance this is still important, but the fight mechanics rarely require a complex interaction of multiple classes. Knowing all the details of your class traits, selecting the right legendary items, skill rotations for short fights, and for longer ones where power issues might arise cannot be replaced by any amount of gear. You may be asked to trait a particular way, and not only will you need all the legendary skills possible by your class, you'll need to know how to play the trait lines.

Group frequently with other characters on 3- and 6-man instances. A character who solos for 75 levels will have no idea which classes have what strengths. People are constantly asking for help in kinchat, and some public channels. Join them! You will learn about the other classes, different fight mechanics, and how your character performs in the context of a team. Going from a one-man-band to a 12-man ensemble is a real stretch. Take small steps, and your learning will be easier.

Take the instance seriously. 2, 5, 11 or 23 other people are relying on your efforts. Take the time to prepare - it shows respect for them and their time as well.

Follow instructions. The raid leader has not been chosen at random. He's a veteran of many successful raids, and may have a slightly different strategy in mind than the ones you've read online. If everyone is doing his own thing, wipes will result. If you have a question, ask it before things start. Regardless of the "best" way to do things, everyone needs to be on the same page. Offering advice is always welcome, but when it's time to shatter spears, there's only one voice to heed.

Be patient and respectful. Getting killed sucks, but you should learn from it, and try again. People make mistakes, and everyone has a first time in a particular instance. Keep that thought in mind, and realize that in-game silver for repairs is actually pretty cheap. While consumables are somewhat expensive, relying on other people to constantly get hope tokens or scrolls shifts that cost burden onto them. Show respect by paying your way and bringing your own pots, food, tokens, and scrolls.

Participate in some kind of post-mortem with the kinship. Even if just a quick chat after a wipe or even a success, try to point out where we need to be stronger or our strategy needs to change. When your heals were particularly good, or the tank was an absolute aggro machine, or adds were burned down especially quickly, point that out too! We don't have to fail to learn - and can ask our more experienced/successful raiders how they did what they did. Also, don't be afraid to ask how the wipe came to be. Total failure is a wonderful teacher for the unforgiving mechanics involved in raiding.

Also, speaking why to use buffs wich are helping other classes doing what u should do.

Those are Lotro classes. Everyone should learn what they are doing:

Burglar
Roles: Melee DPS, Debuffer, Crowd Control

Captain
Roles: Buffer, Pet Class, Healer, Melee DPS

Champion
Roles: Melee DPS, AoE DPS, Tank

Guardian
Roles: Tank, Melee DPS

Hunter
Roles: Ranged DPS, AOE DPS, Crowd Control, Melee DPS

Lore-master
Roles: Debuffer, Crowd Control, Pet Class, Healer

Minstrel
Roles: Healer, Buffer, Crowd Control

Rune-keeper
Roles: Ranged DPS, Healer, AoE DPS, Debuffer

Warden
Roles: Tank, Melee DPS, Ranged DPS

Meaning, if i use ballad of war i help burg, champ, guard and warden doing their job and i should focus on healing instead helping them AKA doing their job? Not true. I overall improve my team. Every thing count here. So is nothing wrong doing buffs wich are helping the cappy healing the group, because cappy also do that (check their roll). That does not mean u are lazy and not healing.

Anyway, the ideea is:

- group with ppl
- experiment your class
- dont be afraid of wiping and get some fun

Remember, This game is not meant for solo.

respect



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 Post subject: Re: Grouping - knowing your class - behaviour
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 4:15 pm 
RIVEN!!!
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Nice idea and sentiment Andy, that argument last night kept me well entertained. Glad my leroy mini has your approval ;-)

Wouldn't call mini crowd control (fear and a red line stun isn't really big CC). They are however super dps ;-)


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 Post subject: Re: Grouping - knowing your class - behaviour
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 4:33 pm 
Captain General
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andrac wrote:
Guardian
Roles: Tank, Melee DPS


Melee DPS? Rofl :lol:

But good post andy, definitely worth making the point that players should know what all your skills do and where to use them even if their use is limited. If you dont know these things - ask! Its what we're here for :)



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 Post subject: Re: Grouping - knowing your class - behaviour
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 4:41 pm 
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I rather like the chart on LOTRO-Wiki (though perhaps out of date).
If one was to have a list of functions, as follows:

T=Tank, MS=Melee DPS (Single), MA=Melee DPS (AOE), RS=Ranged DPS (Single), RA=Ranged DPS (AOE), H=Heal, B=Buff, D=Debuff, C=CC

and then put them in order of priority on classes from left to right with left being most obvious role, you'd get something like (with very minor roles in lower-case):

Guard: T,ms
Warden: T,MS,rs
Champ: MA,MS,T
Cappy: B,H,T,ms
Burg: MS,C,D
LM: C,D,RA,h
Hunter: RS,RA,c
Minnie: H,B,RS,ra
RK: RS,RA,H,d



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 Post subject: Re: Grouping - knowing your class - behaviour
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 10:21 pm 
Bacon Connoisseur
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Don't scare the casual players away Andy :)



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 Post subject: Re: Grouping - knowing your class - behaviour
PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 1:58 pm 
Esquire
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Maybe it will be good idea to listen the opinion of casual players.
I'm a casual player and I will tell my personnal opinion. I hope other casual playes will make the same.
I have 3 chars in the kin - Anguelion = Warden 75; Anguelcho = Captain 75; Anguelarii = RK 70. All of them Westfold Masters in their crafting.
I have 5 more low level chars (all kind of classes exept Burglar) out of the kin. And I play with ALL chars. And how could I know all skills of 8 classes ?
I made my chars avancements 98% in solo playing. You will ask me WHY ?
1. I can't play late in the evenings because I'm working person aged 55 and I need to sleep before the working day and 99% of the group events are in the night;
2. When I started the Warden and the RK I thought they are DPS ... Nobody is interested in Warden DPS ! I traited RK for a healer and sometimes I participate in casual 2 or 3 persons events.
3. I started the Captain without a clear idea what to do with him. Now he is traited for healing and he manage in casual 2 - 3 persons events not bad.
What the professional playes could learn for the casual playes if they want to help them from my personal experience:
1. Casual players maybe can't participate in long events because they have 1 or 2 hours to play at all;
2. Casual players maybe can't play in the night;
3. Casual playes don't know by heart all their skills;
4. Casual players don't have lightning reactions;
5. Casual playes play for relaxation and consolation after the hard working day and they don't want to be stressed in the game too;
6. Casual players are the great number of players and they keep the game alive with their fees;
7. If you agree make an effort to play sometimes with the boring casual players !



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 Post subject: Re: Grouping - knowing your class - behaviour
PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 2:26 pm 
Danger Mouse
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We say that we are an casual kin. Even we do have some players who play more time than the usual limit and we do have players who are never gonna miss an raid. I do understand you, my father have 59 years. He is the lider of a big kin in World of warcraft, he have all the toons, he have more than 500000 g and he is one of the best players there, but at 9 pm he close the pc so he is doing most of the raids/instances early. For example, i start to play after 9,30 pm. For uk is 7,30 so they start early the instances, i start late. But WoW raids are a joke from my point of view, in one hour max they do the raid, we need 2-3 h to finish a raid.
In game u solo mostly, and try to group with others in the content for 3/6/12. Soloing and grouping are 2 diferent stuff and maybe except some dps classes, the rest of the classes need to learn to play in groups. That mean joining groups as much as you can to be able to do your role.
Now i am wonder how is possible to fit the casual players in any group content. Since the casual have 1, maybe 2 h max in one day, for joining an instance/raid that is less than required time. Also that meaning that everything to go smooth to be able to finish the raid, but since a casual dont know how to play in groups, that mean everything will not go as smooth as u will say and u will pass that time limit. I said that regarding your last point, point 7: make an effort to play sometimes with the boring casual players!. I did not remember asking for a group, looking for a group in globall or posting your presence in any of our scheduled stuff from forums. I would like to have you in Draigoch to get some gear by example. We will have one run Wednesday also at 9,30 your time. Will take 45 min max and is not so late. When the raiding scheduled was proposed, we did a topic asking ppl for the proper day and time, and the results was monday/thursday at 7,30 uk time, draigoch sunday 20,00 UK time, the rest around 7,30 uk time (instances). Indeed, for us who have +2 gmt /like me also is harder to join them.
Feel free when u are in game to search for groups. We have a lot of ppl around and i am sure u will find an group Ang.

Oh, and not forget, all the respect for your respectable age and for the fact that u are an nice person who like this game. We are lucky to have you around and i am sorry that i dont know any other ways to help you being more with us.



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 Post subject: Re: Grouping - knowing your class - behaviour
PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 2:28 pm 
The Almighty
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anguelion wrote:
I have 5 more low level chars (all kind of classes exept Burglar) out of the kin. And I play with ALL chars. And how could I know all skills of 8 classes ?

I think the point was that you should know your *lvl capped* character's skills, what they do, how best to use them etc, not *EVERY* classes skills.

anguelion wrote:
1. I can't play late in the evenings because I'm working person aged 55 and I need to sleep before the working day and 99% of the group events are in the night;

Most people cannot play during the day, because of Work, School etc. Most people are online in the evenings (even at weekends), so this is usually when events get run. From experience, trying to get runs started late afternoon (3-4pm UK) usually results in poor signups at weekends, and no signups in the week.

anguelion wrote:
2. When I started the Warden and the RK I thought they are DPS ... Nobody is interested in Warden DPS ! I traited RK for a healer and sometimes I participate in casual 2 or 3 persons events.

RK's are still quite popular as DPS. Wardens will only be taken in a PUG as a tank, but in kin we often don't mind randoms being wardens traited for DPS (even in T1 orthanc).

anguelion wrote:
1. Casual players maybe can't participate in long events because they have 1 or 2 hours to play at all;

This is why all events are advised not to be longer than 2 hours maximum, and large raids are split over multiple days.

anguelion wrote:
2. Casual players maybe can't play in the night;

More casual players play in the evenings than don't. It's unfortunate but we have to cater for the majority. There's nothing stopping people trying to organise events at times that suit themselves however...

anguelion wrote:
3. Casual players don't know by heart all their skills;

Practice makes perfect, and for everything else the kin is here to help out with advice. Hopefully between now and the end of the year there will be detailed class guides providing all sorts of tips and tricks.

anguelion wrote:
4. Casual players don't have lightning reactions;

No, the rest of groups are on hand to warn you if you need to pot anything or run away etc, and unless you're doing Orthanc T2 this isn't really a problem.

anguelion wrote:
5. Casual playes play for relaxation and consolation after the hard working day and they don't want to be stressed in the game too;

That's why the kin's philosophy is to have fun while raiding and not become a "hardcore" raiding kin. If we're attempting something very hard like Orthanc T2, then yes, it's not really for the casual player, but there is always plenty else going on.

anguelion wrote:
7. If you agree make an effort to play sometimes with the boring casual players !

Unless it's something like Orthanc T2 where a casual player may be (with justification!) be discriminated against in terms of gear etc, there is no discrimination against a casual player and they are welcome to join in any events. Take Hiddenmouse for example. He was a solo palyer until he hit level cap, pretty much just interested in going around solo and doing quests & deeds. Withhelp from a few kinnies he experienced group content in the Limlight Gorge, then even started joining a few instance and then even Orthanc. This is despite him admitting himself that he doesn't have the best gear, reactions, etc, and now he's much better off in terms of gear and knowing how to use his calss in a group/raid situation.



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 Post subject: Re: Grouping - knowing your class - behaviour
PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 2:29 pm 
Second Marshall
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Anguelion I started as a casual myself and I understand when you're coming from.
This is my first mmo and I started when I saw it's f2p mostly because I loved the books, movies and the entire Tolkien universe.
What Andy and Aed posted where some guides to have a better look at each class and now the capabilities of each class. Each class can do more then one thing, that's an important thing to understand.
Of course, when you play solo most of the time you don't experiment most of the class as you most probably go for dps traits to kill your enemies and do the quests faster.
This kin is a casual one and I remember when I first started doing instances and raids I had only a small idea of all the skills of the class and what the class should do/ should not do (and it was a tank :lol: ).
People from this kin always helped me and they had patience and that's how I managed to better learn my class and understand better the main role.
You can't really experiment all the things from that specific class if you don't group up. I'm in this kin since April 2011 and new people where always encouraged to come and join kin runs.
The fact that the runs are late or not good for your schedule are due to the fact that those people who lead it have time available at that point or it's some standard time in which most people played and agreed upon.
Everyone is free to post an event and I'm sure if you post some events in your free time when you can play some people might join you if they are available.
I need a captain in my Draigoch raid on Wednesday so if you're available you can sign up. As said, I have no problem with new people, and I don't think anyone has, but it's important to listen to the more experienced ones as they might give you some helpful tips which can make you play better, on solo and groups as well.



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 Post subject: Re: Grouping - knowing your class - behaviour
PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 4:37 pm 
Esquire
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I'm very grateful for all postings commenting my shared thoughts even for those who don't agree with me.
Only one thing - events start at 8 - 9 PM UK time. Bulgarian time this is 10 - 11 ...

PS Will try my RK for a fire DPS :twisted:

PPS I will wait with an enormous curiosity the promised guides for all classes. I have big difficulties to level up my LM (level 45) - he die very often and very easy if he fight more than 2 foes.



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